Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

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wouter_doorn
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Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby wouter_doorn » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:09 am

Dear fellow abhidhamma students,

I was studying the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (bhikkhu bodhi's version) when I stumbled over what appears to be an inconsistency. It is probalby just a failure to understand things correctly on my side, so I hope one of you can clarify the issue.

It is about the base coinciding with citta and cetaskia.

In the abhidhammattha sangaha it is first stated that citta and cetasika have the same base (ekavatthuka, p.77). Yet in the chapter on the 12 sensbases (Āyatanānani) it is stated that citta coincide with the mind-base, while cetasika coincide with the mental-object base (p.287). The mind-base and mental-object base are not the same, but this would mean that the statement about ekavatthuka is false...

I hope somebody can enlighten me on this apperent contradiciton!

With metta,

Wouter

wouter_doorn
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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby wouter_doorn » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:17 am

If no one here can help me, does anyone know another place where I could ask this question?

Metta,


Wouter

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mikenz66
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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:29 am


lojong1
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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby lojong1 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:54 am

What I see so far that might cause confusion is that for one English 'base' there are two Pali words--vatthu in ch.II.1, and aayatana in ch.VII.36.
I'm still looking...

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mikenz66
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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:12 am


lojong1
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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby lojong1 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:30 am

Citta and cetasika are stationed respectively at the internal and external sides of the base-pair-sphere-aayatana-thingy, i.e at the maanaayatana-mind-base. and dhammaayatana-mental-object-base. When these two meet, they start a cognitive series (viithi) at the related vatthu-base. Vatthu-base is dvaara-door is pasaada-organ from different angles, and depending on what's happening with who's looking, I guess, or something.
Salayatana means 6-base, or 6-sphere, yet there are 12 items in the list. That's because they are 6 pairs--2 sides per 'base'. The mind base and mental contents base mentioned in the book are 2 sides of the same mind-sphere/base. Anyways however you look at it--same sphere/aayatana or same base/vatthu--there's no contradiction.
Smeg...

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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby lojong1 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:52 am

Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhaultsci.pdf

wouter_doorn
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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby wouter_doorn » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:48 pm

thanks for the replies!
I called it a contradiction because I couldn't find the right word :). What I meant was more a point of confusion...
I guess both answeres are plausible, that the bases are two sides of the same coin, and that there might be a difference between vatthu and ayatana lost in translation.

Metta,

Wouter

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mikenz66
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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:55 pm


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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby lojong1 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:06 am


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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby lojong1 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:41 am


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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby lojong1 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:56 am

Is there a way to get rid of [the translation's] point '(iv)' altogether? The noun 'vatthu' isn't there.

"Vatthuka (adj.) (--°) [fr. vatthu1] 1. having a site or foundation or ground, in ucca° (high) and nīca° (low) Vin II.117, 120; Mhvs 33, 87.
2. having its ground in, founded on, being of such & such a nature or composition S IV.67 (vācā°); Ps I.130 (micchādiṭṭhi°, correct in Index J.P.T.S. 1908!); Vbh 319 (uppanna°; +ārammaṇa), 392 (micchādiṭṭhi°); VbhA 403 (uppanna° etc.)."

Same manual p.135: "But mental object (Dhammaaramma.nam) is sixfold: sensitive matter, subtle matter, consciousness (citta), mental factors (cetasika), Nibbaana, and concepts."
'Citta and cetasika share the nature of having (vatthukaa) one object and one arising-passing.' Although it may amount to practically the same thing, it does not say they share one base (vatthu).
Unless I'm wrong and it does, duh.
Last edited by lojong1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mikenz66
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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:05 am


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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby lojong1 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:21 am


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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby lojong1 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:18 pm


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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:10 am


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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby 5heaps » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:53 pm

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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby pt1 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:20 pm


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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby pt1 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:44 am

Hi, after a bit of discussion, it seems classifications as vatthu and as ayatana are simply two different ways to classify dhammas, in order to show their different aspects. So, classification by vatthu has to do with the physical base of arising. So both citta and cetasikas have the same physical base of arising, while the 5 senses of course each have their own. When it comes to ayatana classification, it has to do with how dhammas meet or associate together.

So, cetasikas are put in dhamma-ayatana together with subtle rupas and nibbana, because these are dhammas that can only be experienced through the mind-door (interestingly, cetasikas cannot arise without citta, subtle rupas can, while nibbana doesn't arise or cease at all, being unconditioned). Citta is put into mana-ayatana, because citta is basically the meeting point for experiencing so to speak (which is also why mana-ayatana is classified as internal ayatana, while dhamma-ayatana is classified as external ayatana in the internal/external classification). And the 5 sense organs and objects are put in their respective ayatanas, since they are experienced through the respective sense-door.

Some of the related dsg discussion posts:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/111562
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/112197
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... ges/112359

Best wishes

wouter_doorn
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Re: Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

Postby wouter_doorn » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:52 am

Thanks!


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