Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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retrofuturist
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings bhante,
Paññāsikhara wrote:Best to just not take that precept, I figure.
Possibly.

Would it be better for someone to take the precept, and avoid drinking on 9 out of 10 occasions (motivated by the precept they have taken), lapsing because on one occasion unwholesome states got the better of Right Intention.... or would it be better to not take the precept at all, and drink on every occasion?

Possibly it depends on whether one regards them as vows or training precepts?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Sanghamitta »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings bhante,
Paññāsikhara wrote:Best to just not take that precept, I figure.
Possibly.

Would it be better for someone to take the precept, and avoid drinking on 9 out of 10 occasions (motivated by the precept they have taken), lapsing because on one occasion unwholesome states got the better of Right Intention.... or would it be better to not take the precept at all, and drink on every occasion?

Possibly it depends on whether one regards them as vows or training precepts?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Precisely so.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Phra Chuntawongso »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings bhante,
Paññāsikhara wrote:Best to just not take that precept, I figure.
Possibly.

Would it be better for someone to take the precept, and avoid drinking on 9 out of 10 occasions (motivated by the precept they have taken), lapsing because on one occasion unwholesome states got the better of Right Intention.... or would it be better to not take the precept at all, and drink on every occasion?

Possibly it depends on whether one regards them as vows or training precepts?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro.A person who takes the precept and who may occasionally slip up is understandable.We are all human after all.No need to beat yourself up over this.(not you personally)
I think the discussion was about taking the precept and drinking regardless(this is how I see it)
I posted earlier that if a person is aware that they may want to take a drink on any given day then perhaps the best thing to do would be to omit the precept that day,rather than break it.I have even heard of people who have taken back the vow because a situation has come up unexpectedly.I guess that works as well.
With metta
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Hanzze
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Sanghamitta »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Sanghamitta wrote:
Then you would dislike me I guess Pannasikhara. I am frequently deluded, a hypocrite and a liar. I frequently project and judge others. I frequently withhold the full truth out of a desire to appear better than i am. I frequently say one thing and do something else. I constantly fall short of my own aspirations.
Probably it would be better fro you to "invisible" me rather than dwell in aversion. As for me I would sooner spend time with a compassionate drinker than with a puritan who judges others.
I said I dislike hypocrisy, not that I dislike hypocrites (if there is such a thing).
For hypocrites, compassion is the best approach.
There is no judging of anyone in this case.

Best to just not take that precept, I figure.
No one judging anyone...? Really ?
We are not all fortunate enough or perhaps meritorious enough Pannisikhara to live in the rarefied atmosphere of a monastery or under the Vinaya . Many of us have to rub along in the unrarified world of things as we find them.
Some of the most dedicated lay Buddhists I know have been known to have a pint of beer with their steak, and if that upsets your sensibilities then that is unfortunate.
The late Christmas Humphries did a lot for Buddhism in the UK. He was a seminal influence. He was a close friend of the Buddhist writer Wei Wu Wei who had a vineyard in the South of France and made his own wine. Every Christmas he would send Toby Humphries a crate of his wine for his birthday. Humphries would work his way through that over the coming months. A glass at a time.
Humphries was a pioneer in introducing the Pancasila at public Buddhist ceremonies in the UK.
Were they hypocrites ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Hanzze
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Dan74 »

Nanadhaja wrote: I think the discussion was about taking the precept and drinking regardless(this is how I see it)
I posted earlier that if a person is aware that they may want to take a drink on any given day then perhaps the best thing to do would be to omit the precept that day,rather than break it.I have even heard of people who have taken back the vow because a situation has come up unexpectedly.I guess that works as well.
With metta
I took the discussion to be about being a Buddhist and drinking in moderation (from the title). This could (in part) explain the variation in approaches.

Shonin's example of the French Zen temple and the reactions to that and to notions like mindful drinking http://www.elephantjournal.com/2009/03/ ... -buddhism/ was something that is closer to my heart than the pretty uncontroversial notion of personal respect for precepts.
_/|\_
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Lazy_eye »

Paññāsikhara wrote: Best to just not take that precept, I figure.
Venerable,

Is there the option of taking four precepts?

I have been wondering about this for awhile. Although I haven't taken the precepts formally, I endeavor to observe them -- still, I allow myself the rare glass of wine or beer on certain family and business occasions. So perhaps it would be better to wait until I can observe the fifth precept fully.

On the other hand, my general observance of the precept is probably more thorough than with several of the others. The difference is that with the others, I make unintended lapses whereas with the fifth I have made a decision not to refrain completely.
Last edited by Lazy_eye on Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Phra Chuntawongso »

Hanzze wrote:Dear Ven. Nanadhaja,

such an advice could lead to excuse. "Today I don't take the precept of not harming, because...(hate)" Or do I understand it wrong.
Hanzze,people are taking the precept and then drinking,so not to take the precept in my view is probably better.I think most of the people on this forum are intelligent enough to work out for themselves what is and isn't ok.I would like to believe that for the most part the precepts,whether taken as a means of training or as a vow are fairly well adhered to,in the spirit of why they were given.Therefore I doubt that people would wake up in the morning and say"today I am going to kill some one" so I won't take the first precept.
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Sanghamitta »

Neither I guess would the majority think " I am going to drink to the point of heedlessness " which is what the spirit of the 5th alludes to.
To interpret the 5th precept as a binding vow to teetotalism is a perfectly reasonable response.
However in my view seeing it as a guideline, a rule of training to use all we encounter with mindfulness is another reasonable response and one that is more in accord with experience of many who live in ordinary society.
Why is the current generation of Buddhists so keen to draw lines of minimum belief and behaviour for other Buddhists instead of talking responsibility for themselves ?
I wonder whether it reflects a need for certainty in an increasing volatile world.
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Shonin »

Sanghamitta wrote:Why is the current generation of Buddhists so keen to draw lines of minimum belief and behaviour for other Buddhists instead of talking responsibility for themselves ?
I wonder whether it reflects a need for certainty in an increasing volatile world.
Converts are often more strict than the natives.
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Phra Chuntawongso »

Sanghamitta wrote:Neither I guess would the majority think " I am going to drink to the point of heedlessness " which is what the spirit of the 5th alludes to.
To interpret the 5th precept as a binding vow to teetotalism is a perfectly reasonable response.
However in my view seeing it as a guideline, a rule of training to use all we encounter with mindfulness is another reasonable response and one that is more in accord with experience of many who live in ordinary society.
Why is the current generation of Buddhists so keen to draw lines of minimum belief and behaviour for other Buddhists instead of talking responsibility for themselves ?
I wonder whether it reflects a need for certainty in an increasing volatile world.
I guess upon some reflection I would have to say that it is up to each individual as to how they interptret the precepts.
The other thing I must be mindful of is the fact that I am now a monastic.
As a lay person,when I took the precepts I would try my best(not always successfully)to keep my vows.WhenI was working I took all 5, mon-thurs and on sundays.On fridays and saturdays I left out the 5th precept.Not because I was going to drink,but because there was a good chance that I might and I did not want to break my vows if I could help it.
My wanting to keep them as best as I could probably stemmed from the fact that I had spent my teen years,fighting,stealing,lying etc and I was truly trying to be a better person and so for me they(precepts) became something to stick to.
As a monk the precepts are rules and there are varying consequences for breaking them.
Wishing you all well on your journey.
With metta
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by adosa »

mettafuture wrote: But why do they like it? I'm not asking you specifically. I'm asking everyone. As a person who has never had a drink, I just don't get it.
Why? Because of prior contact leading to current craving. And anatta. Ultimately ignorance. But I'm still seeing quite a bit of judgement mind in your posts. Have you mastered contact/craving/suffering on all aspects?

kind regards,

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by paultraf »

Hello,

I hope it's okay for a newbie to wade into this discussion...

I studied the Fifth Precept for a Master's dissertation entitled, 'Avoiding pamāda: An analysis of the Fifth Precept as Social Protection in Contemporary Contexts with reference to the early Buddhist teachings.'
http://www.chezpaul.org.uk/buddhism/MSt ... tation.htm

From looking at the early texts, my impression is that the original guidance generally comes from the Vinaya from which cascade teachings for lay people. (It was the first time I had really explored the Vinaya – I found the stories that led to the rules very interesting! For translations I relied on Horner.) To make the work more practical, I carried out an online survey (on e-Sangha discussions, now offline) to see how people understood the precept and how they'd practise it in various social contexts. I was particularly interested to see if there were significant variations between different traditions.

Regarding the intended meaning, I focused on the notion of pamāda as it appears key; for the translation of this Pali term I've settled on heedlessness. On that basis, I think a cup of [black] tea is fine :smile: However, it indicates the very broad scope of intoxication (as described in suttas mentioned in this thread); in particular, some popular recreational activities, especially gambling, are not okay.

Regarding the notion of 'moderation', should the interpretation be: not to take alcohol or drugs 'to the point of intoxication'? In my readings, the texts of the Pali canon have generally settled on the rule that states not a drop. The only exception for this is for medicinal purposes. This comes from the account where alcohol was used in medicinal treatment for a bhikkhu named Pilindavaccha. Initially, on the advice of a physician, the Buddha allowed Venerable Pilindavaccha to take medicine that included strong drink mixed with oil, but the sick monk became intoxicated. So subsequently the rule for such medicines became stricter:
if neither the colour nor the smell nor the taste of strong drink appears in any decoction of oil, to drink oil mixed with strong drink if it is like this. [Mahavagga VI 13.1-13.2].
The Buddha also made a distinction between external application and internal consumption.

My own view of the precepts as a lay person are as rules of training, which are sincerely undertaken and renewed on a daily basis. The intention is to keep them fully and retain mindfulness of this commitment, but they're not commandments.

I'd be happy to try and answer questions about the research - methodology and findings. I'm sure a lot more could be done.

- Paul
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