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Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha - Dhamma Wheel

Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

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Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:28 am

Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha: Tissa-metteyya's Questions
Sn 1040-1042

translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Tissa-metteyya:]
Who here in the world is contented?
Who has no agitations?
What thinker knowing both sides,
doesn't adhere in between?
Whom do you call a great person?
Who here has gone past the seamstress:
craving.

[The Buddha:]
He who in the midst of sensualities,
follows the holy life,
always mindful, craving-free;
the monk who is
— through fathoming things —
Unbound:
he has no agitations.
He, the thinker knowing both sides,
doesn't adhere in between.
He I call a great person.
He here has gone past the seamstress:
craving.

Note

AN 6.61 reports a discussion among several elder monks as to what is meant in this poem by "both sides" and "in between." Six of the elders express the following separate opinions:

* Contact is the first side, the origination of contact the second side, and the cessation of contact is in between.
* The past is the first side, the future the second, and the present is in between.
* Pleasant feeling is the first side, painful feeling the second, and neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is in between.
* Name (mental phenomena) is the first side, form (physical phenomena) the second, and consciousness is in between.
* The six external sense media (sights, sounds, aromas, flavors, tactile sensations, ideas) are the first side, the six internal sense media (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, intellect) the second side, and consciousness is in between.
* Self-identity is the first side, the origination of self-identity the second, and the cessation of self-identity is in between.

The issue is then taken to the Buddha, who states that all six interpretations are well-spoken, but the interpretation he had in mind when speaking the poem was the first.

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AN 6.61 Majjhesuttam -In the middle

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:32 am

AN 6.61 Majjhesuttam -In the middle.

At one time The Blessed One was living in the deer park in Isipatana in Benares. At that time many elder bhikkhus after the meal and returning from the alms round were seated and conversing in the circular hall about this answer given by The Blessed One to Metteyya's question in the Parayana Vagga:

`He who knows both ends and has no secret plans in the middle,

Is a Great Man. He has gone beyond the seamstress.'

Friends, what is one end, what is the second end, what is the middle and who is the seamstress?

When this was said a certain bhikkhu said to the elder bhikkhus.

Friends, contact is one end, the arising of contact is the second end, the cessation of contact is the middle. Craving is the seamstress. Craving weaves for him to be reborn here and there. Friends, with this much the bhikkhu thoroughly knows what should be thoroughly known and experiencing what should be experienced here and now makes an end of unpleasantness.

When this was said a certain bhikkhu said to the elder bhikkhus.

Friends, the past is one end, the future is the second end, the present is the middle. Craving is the seamstress. Craving weaves for him to be reborn here and there. Friends, with this much the bhikkhu thoroughly knows what should be thoroughly known and experiencing what should be experienced, here and now makes an end of unpleasantness.

When this was said a certain bhikkhu said to the elder bhikkhus.

Friends, pleasant feeling is one end, unpleasant feeling is the second end, neither unpleasant nor pleasant feeling is the middle. Craving is the seamstress. Craving weaves for him to be reborn here and there. Friends, with this much the bhikkhu thoroughly knows what should be thoroughly known and experiencing what should be experienced, here and now makes an end of unpleasantness.

When this was said a certain bhikkhu said to the elder bhikkhus.

Friends, name is one end, matter is the second end, consciousness is the middle. Craving is the seamstress. Craving weaves for him to be reborn here and there. Friends, with this much the bhikkhu thoroughly knows what should be thoroughly known and experiencing what should be experienced, here and now makes an end of unpleasantness.

When this was said a certain bhikkhu said to the elder bhikkhus.

Friends, the internal spheres is one end, the external spheres is the second end, consciousness is the middle. Craving is the seamstress. Craving weaves for him to be reborn here and there. Friends, with this much the bhikkhu thoroughly knows what should be thoroughly known and experiencing what should be experienced, here and now makes an end of unpleasantness.

When this was said a certain bhikkhu said to the elder bhikkhus.

Friends, self is one end, the arising of self is the second end, the cessation of self is the middle. Craving is the seamstress. Craving weaves for him to be reborn here and there. Friends, with this much the bhikkhu thoroughly knows what should be thoroughly known and experiencing what should be experienced, here and now makes an end of unpleasantness.

When this was said a certain bhikkhu said to the elder bhikkhus.

Friends, we have all declared according to our understanding. Let us now approach The Blessed One, and declare all this and according to what The Blessed One declares about it let us bear in mind. The elder bhikkhus agreed and they approached The Blessed One, worshipped, sat on a side and informed The Blessed One all the conversation that took place. Venerable sir, whose words are the good words? Bhikkhus, all your words are good words. Yet listen for what reason this was told by me to Metteyya's question in the Parayana Vagga.

`He who knows both ends and has no secret plans in the middle,

Is a Great Man. He has gone beyond the seamstress.'

I will tell attend carefully. Those bhikkhus said. Yes, venerable sir and The Blessed One said:

Bhikkhus, contact is one end, the arising of contact is the second end, the cessation of contact is the middle. Craving is the seamstress. Craving weaves for him to be reborn here and there. Friends, with this much the bhikkhu thoroughly knows what should be thoroughly known and experiencing what should be experienced, here and now makes an end of unpleasantness.

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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:36 am

Questions of the young man Tissametteyya
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... gga-e.html

1040. Venerable Tissametteyya said:
"In this world, who is contented, and has no inhibitions
Who will not be soiled in the middle as well as at the two ends.
And who is said to be the Great Man that has gone beyond the streamstress. "

1041. The Blessed One said:
"The bhikkhu leads the holy life, free of greed and always mindful,
When his estimations cease, he has no inhibitions
1042. He knowing both ends is not soiled in the middle.
He is the Great Man gone beyond the streamstress. "

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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:07 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:12 am


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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:55 am

Greetings Mike,

On re-reading it, I think you're right... I read it originally as "through with fathoming things", which would be different in meaning.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:57 am


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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:41 pm

Translation by F. Max Müller:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uho ... &q&f=false
P304

'Who is contented in the world,' -- so said the venerable Tissametteyya, -- 'who is without commotions? Who after knowing both ends does not stick to the middle, as far as his understanding is concerned? Whom dost thou call a great man? Who has overcome desire in this world?'

'The Bhikkhu who abstains from sensual pleasures, O Metteyya,' - so said Bhagavat, -- 'who is free from desire, always thoughtful, happy by reflection, he is without commotions, he after knowing both ends does not stick to the middle, as far as his understanding is concerned; him I call a great man; he has overcome desire in this world.'

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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:20 pm

I found recordings of Anandajoti Bhikkhu reading these texts here:
http://www.archive.org/details/The-Way-to-the-Beyond

Here is his translation:
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... avaggo.pdf

The Young Man Tissa Metteyya's Questions

Who is satisfied here in the world?
said venerable Tissa Metteyya,
For whom is there no turmoil?
Who is the wise man, who has known both ends, and is undefiled in the middle?
Who do you say is a Great Man? Who has gone beyond the seamstress[1] here?

He who is chaste in regard to sense pleasures, Metteyya,
said the Gracious One,
free from craving, always mindful,
having discernment [2] the monk is emancipated, for him there is no turmoil.
He is the wise man, who has known both ends, and is undefiled in the middle.
He, I say, is a Great Man, he has gone beyond the seamstress here.

Notes
[1] The seamstress = craving, personified as one who ties one into continued existence.
[2] Having discerned the truth of impermanence, etc.

A study of the metre of the verses is here:
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... /index.htm
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... -Metre.pdf

Mike

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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:52 am

Well, I'm still waiting for someone to explain the simile to me...

:coffee:
Mike

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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby Vepacitta » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:13 am

Well, if contact has ceased, then there won't be craving (as there needs to be contact for craving to occur)
so, if there's no craving - one isn't soiled, one isn't adhering (due to craving)
one is stainless in the absence of craving - because it's craving that'll 'getcha' every time ... once you crave - you're sucked in and start to cling - leading to becoming and birth - the whole merry go round ...

Did that make sense?

From Mt. Meru,

V.

(thanks for all the great quotes)
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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby Nyana » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:16 am


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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:45 am


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Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha

Postby Sobeh » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:03 am

If:

Object <--- Subject

is avijja; then

Object <-- (thinker) --> Subject

(to use the phrase in the passage) is undefiled in the middle.

In other words:

seen <-- seer

is avijja; therefore

seen <-- (seeing) --> seer

is undefiled in the middle (referring here to the phrase "in the seen is only the seen"; perhaps "...is only seeing"?)


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