Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

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Individual
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by Individual »

The early sangha was able to produce and reproduce a freely available text, with only dried palm leaves and their minds.

Today, people have computers to type in, spellcheck in Microsoft word, printers which can quickly spit out hundreds of pages, an internet where their work can be stored, assistants and editors to help them, and they don't even need to recite the suttas from memory like the first monks did, and the translations are all copyrighted?!
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mikenz66
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mikenz66 »

Didn't we already have this conversation?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 06&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wisdom, BPS, PTS, etc are non-profit organisations. Under the model they've been running for several decades they are charging what they calculate they need to to do a decent job of the editing, typesetting, and printing, presumably by employing some professionals. Operations which are far from trivial to do well. I presume the Authors' do the work for free in these cases.

Perhaps if there were enough volunteers with good skills, or more people donated money to the organizations, then the price could go down. As it is, the Wisdom Sutta series is quite cheap for the size and quality of the books.

Personally, I think that it is more important for these organizations to be viable enough to continue to produce high-quality books (or some other media) for the long term than for the products to be cheaper. I believe we are still missing English translations of a few of the more obscure volumes of the Tipitaka, and some of the translations of the minor volumes (by PTS) are rather dated. The vast majority of the Commentaries are untranslated.

:anjali:
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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

Thank you all for your replies.
mikenz66 wrote:
lojong1 wrote:Bodhi's middle- and Walshe's long-discourses can be read at Palicanon.org
That's true, but the books are much more convenient...
I agree. And the Kindle version would be even more convenient.
Shonin wrote:It depends on you and your intentions I'd say.
I enjoy reading the dhamma, and I'd like to have a more complete knowledge of the suttas.
retrofuturist wrote:If you're dedicated enough to read it, I would recommend it.

:reading:
Lol. Absolutely. I've already read all of In The Buddha's Words, and most of Access to Insight. I'm ready to read the "other" suttas that haven't been included in the popular anthologies.
josephzizys wrote:A bit from left field, but I would recommend the Samyutta Nikaya, also published by BPS/Wisdom, translated by Bodhi, it is arranged thematically, and it also contains rare variants of many of the stock phrases and formulae of the canon.
Not from left field at all. I'd love to have a copy of SN, but it's a bit outside my budget. I'd also like a complete translation of AN, but it's not currently available. (Or is it?) And since MN has more of my favorite suttas than DN (MN 2, 9, and 10), I decided to go with MN.
It's hours of fun for the whole family!
Lol. I bet.
And it's a little less ummm, I dunno, 'narrow' in it's style for mine, the Long Discourses are pretty skewed toward gradual Samatha training and the jhanas, while the Middle length discourses lean more toward mindfulness. There all great, but the Samutta, it's more dense, thematically varied, and just awesome fun.
Are there any good suttas on the asavas, the 4 brahma-viharas (divine abodes), or the 4 elements in SN?
Ok, so I just finished watching the entire series 1 2 and 3 of Avatar in a single week and may be a little... Anyway, the Suttas all reward study, but they are just books after all.
:D
Individual wrote:The early sangha was able to produce and reproduce a freely available text, with only dried palm leaves and their minds.
But the laity weren't able to own a copy of this text.

:hello:
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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

Individual makes an interesting point though. Why couldn't they just put all of the Nikayas online, or make them available as free downloads through iBooks, Amazon, or Barnes & Noble? Even the Kindle version of MN is $30.
Sylvester
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by Sylvester »

I heard from Ajahn Brahm that Bhikkhu Bodhi and Wisdom may have some good news to dispense, when BB's AN is ready. Keep your ears to the ground...
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Ben
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:
josephzizys wrote: Ok, so I just finished watching the entire series 1 2 and 3 of Avatar in a single week and may be a little....
Now you need to, in one sitting, watch the extended versions of the Lord of the Ring Triology.
Does the angry elf make an appearance?
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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

Sylvester wrote:I heard from Ajahn Brahm that Bhikkhu Bodhi and Wisdom may have some good news to dispense, when BB's AN is ready. Keep your ears to the ground...
Now THAT'S the nikaya I've been waiting for! From what I understand, it has more suttas for the laity than any other nikaya.

Right now I have my buy finger hovering over the Kindle version of the Majjhima Nikaya. I'm not sure if I should get this version, the iBooks version, or the hardcover. Oh, decisions, decisions...
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by IanAnd »

mettafuture wrote:
Sylvester wrote:I heard from Ajahn Brahm that Bhikkhu Bodhi and Wisdom may have some good news to dispense, when BB's AN is ready. Keep your ears to the ground...
Now THAT'S the nikaya I've been waiting for! From what I understand, it has more suttas for the laity than any other nikaya.
Thanks for the update about Ven. Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara. It's also possibly the oldest Nikaya according to some scholars.

Currently, I've got Ven. Nyanaponika's anthology of the Anguttara, and that alone was a revelation to read and take notes about. I think you'll be pleasantly pleased with Bhk. Bodhi's new work. The Anguttara has many important discourses (not unlike the Samyutta) that help illuminate the Dhamma and better explain questions that arise about it.
mettafuture wrote: Right now I have my buy finger hovering over the Kindle version of the Majjhima Nikaya. I'm not sure if I should get this version, the iBooks version, or the hardcover. Oh, decisions, decisions...
That all depends on whether or not you like to keep notes and write in the book's margins to highlight important sections. Personally, I do both and prefer the hardcover. I'm generally not into electronic books. Give me the old fashioned hard bound book, something I don't need electrical power to open up and look inside. Just can't beat some low tech resources.
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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

IanAnd wrote:Currently, I've got Ven. Nyanaponika's anthology of the Anguttara, and that alone was a revelation to read and take notes about. I think you'll be pleasantly pleased with Bhk. Bodhi's new work. The Anguttara has many important discourses (not unlike the Samyutta) that help illuminate the Dhamma and better explain questions that arise about it.
I know this is a bit off topic, but what's one of the insights you came across in the Anguttara Nikaya?
IanAnd wrote:
mettafuture wrote:Right now I have my buy finger hovering over the Kindle version of the Majjhima Nikaya. I'm not sure if I should get this version, the iBooks version, or the hardcover. Oh, decisions, decisions...
That all depends on whether or not you like to keep notes and write in the book's margins to highlight important sections.
You can do all of that with iBooks and Kindle now. :D E-readers have come along way, and the battery life is nothing short of amazing (3 weeks on average). As a person who has to travel a lot, I think I might get the iBooks version. I say "might" in italics because I still see some advantages to having a hardcover. But the thought of having to lug around a huge book really bums me out.
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by Sylvester »

I best not say any more about the good news, lest I jinx the whole happy prospect.

Suffice it to say, it pertains not to BB's AN.

Signing out for the next 2 weeks to Jhana Grove.
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by IanAnd »

mettafuture wrote: I know this is a bit off topic, but what's one of the insights you came across in the Anguttara Nikaya?
Well, since it's your thread and your choice of topic, I see no harm.

One of the first suttas I came across that made a giant impression on me was outside of having read the Anguttara. It was a quotation from the Anguttara in another book about Buddhism. And as many here might be able to attest, having already experienced the cynical world of religious politics in real life, it came as a breath of fresh air during a very crucial time in my life. As with many things in life context was everything, and the context of that moment was very poignant. I was a monk and priest in a contemplative western religion order at the time, and was reconsidering my options regarding the road to realization. This was before I even knew there was an Anguttara Nikaya. I, however, had always been impressed with what I had read about Buddhism while studying in college, and this was just another — and as it turned out very important — instance of that. It actually was one of two key factors in helping me to arrive at a very critical personal decision. The other key factor had been a quotation by Jiddhu Krishnamurti that I came upon just before having read the passage from the Anguttara and at about this same time.

The time was this same time of year, the Fall of 1989. I was thirty-seven, and becoming disillusioned with the organization I was with as well as the man who was leading it, my religious superior and the person directly in charge of my training. The passage I read was a famous one from the Kalamas Sutta. The person it described (the Buddha) was an ideal that I had until then not been able to come across in my life. When I read that passage, I knew instantly that I had to make some changes in the course of my life, and that they were not going to be easy changes given the circumstances I was in at the time. The man I read about in that passage was nothing like the real life person I was tied to in the religious order. Talk about confronting cetana (volition) and sankharas (mental volitions) and having to transform them.

Anyway, I'm sure many other people have been impressed by that same sutta from the Anguttara. As such, it is something that many of us can relate to, and therefore is not all that obscure. So, I will locate another to talk about that isn't perhaps so widely known.

There is a sutta toward the end of the book (in the Chapter of the Tens) that was particularly helpful in my understanding and defining of kamma. I don't know the traditional Pali name of the sutta because the edition I have doesn't give that designation. The English name given is "The Extinction of Kamma," and it is at AN X.206. It was the opening paragraph of this translated sutta and the footnote to it that particularly struck me.
I declare, monks, that actions willed, performed and accumulated will not become extinct as long as their results have not been experienced, be it in this life, in the next life or in subsequent future lives. And as long as these results of actions willed, performed and accumulated have not been experienced, there will be no making an end to suffering, I declare.[70]

Footnote:
70. On the threefold ripening of kamma, see Text 24 and Ch. III, n. 13. The Buddha's statement — that there is no making an end to suffering without experiencing the results of all actions performed — must be understood with the reservation (which AA makes explicit in connection with "kamma ripening in future lives") that reference is to "kamma that is actually capable of yielding a kammic result" (vipakarahakamma). But under certain circumstances kamma can be annulled by a counteractive or destructive kamma, and the arahant, by terminating the conditions for rebirth, extinguishes the potential for ripening of all his past kamma. The statement in our text must also be understood in the light of the following sutta passage: "If one says that in whatever way a person performs a kammic action, in that very same way he will experience the result — in that case there will be no (possibility for) the holy life, and no opportunity would appear for making a complete end to suffering. But if one says that a person who performs a kammic action (with a result) that is variably experienceable, will reap its result accordingly — in that case there will be (a possibility for) the holy life, and an opportunity would appear for making a complete end to suffering" (AN III, 110).
That last sentence highlighted above was a great relief and burden off my shoulders at the time. It also told me that the possibility for the result of kamma is dependent on one's present-time frame of reference (i.e. in this very moment) and not on some ontological (metaphysical) inevitability. Thus, with wisdom (the ending of ignorance about what kamma is) and with mindfulness on this established, one never need be overly concerned about the results of past kamma. This last has to do with the development of Right View, which is ever so important in the process of the ending of suffering.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

Beautifully explained, IanAnd. Thank you for sharing a part of your journey with us. And thank you for inspiring me to give the Anguttara Nikaya a closer look. :)

Regarding my purchase of the Majjhima Nikaya, I think I'm going to wait. I've already studied a lot of dhamma, and I think it's about time I focus more on practice. I'll likely order Practicing the Jhanas by Stephen Snyder first, order the Anguttara Nikaya when ever it's released, and then order the Majjhima Nikaya shortly thereafter.

Thank you all again for your replies.
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by BlackBird »

I haven't read the thread, mettafuture. But I think you'll get much more bang for your buck if you order the Majjhima instead of Jhana advice from Mr. Snyder. In truth there's no magic bullet to Samadhi. You watch the breath, you lose focus, you bring attention back to the breath, rinse and repeat until it sticks for a while and voila. These kind of books like to talk about the immense pleasure of Jhana and what not, but in actual fact when you start reading that kind of thing you're most likely going to be motivated by sensual desire, which is of course one of the things preventing you from 'getting it' in the first place.

I had a book by Shaila Catherine a while back, and while it was an encouraging read, as far as getting motivated for meditation practice, it didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know.

The Majjhima on the other hand, if read thoroughly, will give you a lot of knowledge about what is and is not the Buddha's message. You start applying the message to your day to day life and it's a real joy when a verse from a sutta pops into your head and you suddenly understand it on deeper level. That's priceless stuff.

Just my take
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mettafuture,
mettafuture wrote:I've already studied a lot of dhamma, and I think it's about time I focus more on practice.
What makes you assume that Stephen Snyder would give better practical advice on the Dhamma than the suttas do?

On what basis do you differentiate between "Dhamma" and "practice"? Is one somehow disconnected from the other? Perhaps you mean the differentiation between "study" and "cultivation"? Again, if that's what you meant, why Stephen Snyder over the Majjhima Nikaya? Is Stephen Snyder more adept at mental cultivation than the Buddha?

I'm interested in your thoughts/logic.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by Vepacitta »

Sometimes 'extra curricular' writings are helpful when learning about jhanas - then they should be compared to the suttas. They are an aid (to me).

I can't speak to Stephen Snyder. I do know that Nana posted some excellent on-line resources about jhana meditation - look in the suttanta meditation thread - helpful articles by Aj. Thanissaro and others.

For sutta study, as I already mentioned - something about the Samyutta Nikaya 'clicks' for me.

All the best from Mt. Meru,


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