Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

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BlackBird
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by BlackBird »

Waste of good fire fuel in my opinion ;)
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Viz the "agnostic" question, the very word "buddha" and other terms used to describe him, such as "jnana" give the immediate and strong impression that, if anything, the buddha is "gnostic", and not at all "a-gnostic". Here, I do not mean "gnostic" in the sense of the early Christian idea, but in the sense of a "knower". All these terms, >gno, >jna, >kno and so on are obviously cognates or cognate roots. The other terms, such as >budh, >vid, and so on are from different roots, but mean the same thing more or less.

I find it difficult to even consider the idea that the Buddha was anything other than "gnostic", quite frankly.
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Shonin »

Does Batchelor say that the Buddha was agnostic, or only that he is agnostic?
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Goofaholix »

Shonin wrote:Does Batchelor say that the Buddha was agnostic, or only that he is agnostic?
No, he describes the Buddha as an "ironic athiest" which he describes as finding amusement in religious belief rather than being in contention with it.

As already pointed out gnostic and buddha have very similar meanings so it wouldn't make sense to call him agnostic, Stephen doesn't present agnosticism as a final goal but an attitude of practice.
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Sanghamitta »

I am definitely going to read it. There has to be an interesting reason for people, some of whom appear from their posts in general to be rational and considerate, talking of burning books. That's a fear response if I have ever seen one.
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by tiltbillings »

Sanghamitta wrote:I am definitely going to read it. There has to be an interesting reason for people, some of whom appear from their posts in general to be rational and considerate, talking of burning books. That's a fear response if I have ever seen one.
Agree with him or not, Batchelor is worth reading.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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BlackBird
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by BlackBird »

Sanghamitta wrote:...talking of burning books. That's a fear response if I have ever seen one.
I was just employing a hyperbole to show my rabid distaste for Batchelor's ideas (which I have second hand knowledge of), I think they're at odds with the message of the Nikayas. Nothin' to be afraid of :)
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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tiltbillings
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by tiltbillings »

BlackBird wrote:
Sanghamitta wrote:...talking of burning books. That's a fear response if I have ever seen one.
I was just employing a hyperbole to show my rabid distaste for Batchelor's ideas (which I have second hand knowledge of),
Which is to say, you have not read any of his books? Millions of Muslims screamed for Rushdie's death without ever having read a word he wrote. We can do better than that.

Tell you you what, for about $3.00 plus shipping you can get a used copy of Living with the Devil from Amazon, which is a look at the idea of Mara in the suttas. It is worth a read whether you agree with him or not. So, rather than speaking from a place of ignorance about what Batchelor actualy says, actually read something he has written and see if it actually feeds your rabid distaste.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Sanghamitta »

I think rabid distaste is also contrary to the message of the Nikayas. The fact that this rabid distate is for something not known at first hand is doubly unfortunate.....that's precisely where book burning leads.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Ben
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Ben »

BlackBird wrote: ...to show my rabid...
Jack, you can get a series of shots for this.
BlackBird wrote: Batchelor's ideas
Unfortunately, no known vaccine - but I do like Tilt's idea!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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BlackBird
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by BlackBird »

I don't think Batchelor's enlightened. Maybe he has some interesting things to say Tilt, but really I have no great desire for spending time figuring him out. Scholastic works, are by and large (exceptions of course) superfluous on the path to enlightenment, and I have found in my own experience that less is best when it comes to listening to the views of those who have not gained a foothold in the Buddha's Dhamma.

My view is that the existence of a 'me' an 'I am' is an existential problem, that requires an existential solution. I've been down enough detours to know they won't get me where I want to go, and I have read enough about Batchelor and his ideas to know that they're at odds with my reading of the Suttas.

You don't have to watch a Uwe Boll film to know he's a rubbish director.

(Please don't take my book burning comment so seriously Sanghamitta :))

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by tiltbillings »

BlackBird wrote:I don't think Batchelor's enlightened.
He does not claim to be.
Maybe he has some interesting things to say Tilt, but really I have no great desire for spending time figuring him out. Scholastic works, are by and large (exceptions of course) superfluous on the path to enlightenment, and I have found in my own experience that less is best when it comes to listening to the views of those who have not gained a foothold in the Buddha's Dhamma.
The book I suggested is not a scholarly work. It is a book of practical consideration. A foothold in the Dhamma? You might be surprised.
My view is that the existence of a 'me' an 'I am' is an existential problem, that requires an existential solution.
Interestingly, that is what Batchelor says.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Ben »

Jack,
Respectfully,I would caution you against disregarding that which you find disagreeable or disagreeable to your present understanding of the suttas. For as long as we remain unenlightened, our view is obscured by our own predelictions, our preferences and our conceit. We shouldnt invest any value to our own view. The value of another person's point of view, whether it is Batchelor, Goldstein, Ven Bodhi, Ven Analayo, particularly if it is something that we may find disagreeable, is that it offers an alternative perspective from where we can reconsider our own.

with metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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e: [email protected]..
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BlackBird
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by BlackBird »

Alright Ben, Tilt, Sanghamitta. I respect what you have to say, if and when I find a Batchelor book I won't shy away, I will give him his due. Sometimes I need to be dragged kicking and screaming into these things, seeing as I am now a hardened cynic. I appreciate the effort on your behalf.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Re: Batchelor's "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Aloka »

.

I started to read the book as far as the end of Chapter 7 , and so far I've found it quite boring to be honest- he's really not saying anything that's new or interesting to me. Certainly nothing to make a fuss about.

Perhaps it might improve later if I can be bothered to pick it up again !

.
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