Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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yamaka
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Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby yamaka » Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:11 am

Dear all Dhamma friends,

I have heard from some Myanmar's tradition Bhikkhu, indicated that in Myanmar, if someone intent to get ordained and his parents is not allow, he is eligible to find someone to become his adoptive parents and make his qualifications valid.

Further more, they saying that, if one's parents are not a Buddhist, he is also eligible to get ordain without his parents permission, all of the basis are from the Vinaya commentaries and the Dhammapada commentaries, thus the Ven. Revata's example.(younger brother of Ven. Sariputta)

I have searched the information regarding this issue, most of the Vinaya texts(including earlier Buddhism schools) are stated if ones wishes to get ordained, he must get the permission from the parents and I have asked the Thai tradition's Bhikkhu too then they're denied the above statement.

Please give your comment for this issue.

With Metta,
:namaste:

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby Sobeh » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:21 am

It's the tenth question asked during the ceremony for higher ordination, I can't see a way around that.

1. Do you suffer from leprosy?
2. Have you got boils?
3. Have you got eczema?
4. Have you got tuberculosis?
5. Do you get epilepsy?
6. Are you a human being?
7. Are you a man?
8. Are you a free man?
9. Are you free from government service?
10. Have you got your parents' permission to be ordained?
11. Have you a set of three robes and an almsbowl?
12. What is your name?
13. What is your preceptor's name?

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:17 am

Where there's a will, there's a way! :heart:
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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:42 am

Greetings Yamaka,

I think you can be a samanera without parental permission.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby yamaka » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:53 am

Sobeh wrote:It's the tenth question asked during the ceremony for higher ordination, I can't see a way around that.

1. Do you suffer from leprosy?
2. Have you got boils?
3. Have you got eczema?
4. Have you got tuberculosis?
5. Do you get epilepsy?
6. Are you a human being?
7. Are you a man?
8. Are you a free man?
9. Are you free from government service?
10. Have you got your parents' permission to be ordained?
11. Have you a set of three robes and an almsbowl?
12. What is your name?
13. What is your preceptor's name?


Dear Sobeh,

Yes, I knew these questions, but isn't anyway around that to let ones make an exception,e.g. find someone to be your adoptive parents according the commentaries?


With Metta,
:namaste:  

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby yamaka » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:54 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:Where there's a will, there's a way! :heart:




yes, that is :quote:

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby yamaka » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Yamaka,

I think you can be a samanera without parental permission.

Metta,
Retro. :)



Hi Retro,

I thought the rule for a man to be ordained as a monk(or going forth as a Samanera) must have the permission from the parents according to the Vinaya?

King Suddhodana,He requested the Buddha not to allow the going-forth of children without their parents’ permission - and the Buddha laid down a ruling that this was not to be done.To do so in future would be an offence of wrong-doing.



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:namaste:

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:03 am

Greetings Yamaka,

yamaka wrote:I thought the rule for a man to be ordained as a monk(or going forth as a Samanera) must have the permission from the parents according to the Vinaya?

I can't be 100% sure - I've never been a samanera... but I'm pretty sure there's no such requirement for a samanera. Possibly someone else can comment either way?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby yamaka » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:05 am

These are the exceptions quoted by the Bhikkhu from the Dhammapada commentary:

Verse 98

VII (9) The Story of Thera Revata
While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (98) of this book, with reference to Thera Revata of the Acacia (khadira) Forest.

Revata was the youngest brother of the Chief Disciple, Sariputta. He was the only one of the brothers and sisters of Sariputta who had not left home for the homeless life. His parents were very anxious to get him married. Revata was only seven years old when his parents arranged a marriage for him to a young girl. At the wedding reception, he met an old lady who was one hundred and twenty years old, and he realized that all beings are subject to ageing and decay. So, he ran away from the house and went straight to a monastery, where there were thirty bhikkhus. Those bhikkhus had been requested earlier by Thera Sariputta to make his brother a samanera if he should come to them. Accordingly, he was made a samanera and Thera Sariputta was informed about it.

Samanera Revata took a subject of meditation from those bhikkhus and left for an acacia forest, thirty yojanas away from the monastery. At the end of the vassa, the samanera attained arahatship. Thera Sariputta then asked permission from the Buddha to visit his brother, but the Buddha replied that he himself would go there. So the Buddha accompanied by Thera Sariputta, Thera Sivali and five hundred other bhikkhus set out to visit Samanera Revata.

The journey was long, the road was rough and the area was uninhabited by people; but the devas looked to all the needs of the Buddha and the bhikkhus on the way. At an interval of every yojana, a monastery and food were provided, and they travelled at the rate of a yojana a day. Revata, learning about the visit of the Buddha, also made arrangements to welcome him. By supernormal power he created a special monastery for the Buddha and five hundred monasteries for the other bhikkhus, and made them comfortable throughout their stay there.

On their return journey, they travelled at the same rate as before, and came to the Pubbarama monastery on the eastern end of Savatthi at the end of the month. From there, they went to the house of Visakha, who offered them alms-food. After the meal, Visakha asked the Buddha if the place of Revata in the acacia forest was pleasant.

And the Buddha answered in verse as follows:

Verse 98. In a village or in a forest, in a valley or on a hill, wherever arahats dwell, that place is delightful.


:namaste:

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby Sobeh » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:41 pm

So ordination sans parental permission can occur in cases where the parents are, through family tradition and/or the broader culture, going to add householder fetters to one so motivated? (i.e. an arranged marriage) I suppose it seems to reflect the intention of the pre-renunciate. In the Sutta, the new monk was off to the forest, he didn't hang about...

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:57 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Yamaka,

yamaka wrote:I thought the rule for a man to be ordained as a monk(or going forth as a Samanera) must have the permission from the parents according to the Vinaya?

I can't be 100% sure - I've never been a samanera... but I'm pretty sure there's no such requirement for a samanera. Possibly someone else can comment either way?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Hi Retro.In the Maha Nikaya tradition you do not need parental permission for samanera ordination.
I believe that in the Dhammayuttka Order you would do.
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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby Annapurna » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:18 am

Hi, may I ask something too?

What is meant with this?
Have you got eczema?


Eczema seems in many cases a harmless and not contageous condition that doesn't require much medical attention...it can come and go.

Would it be impossible to ordain if you have a harmless condition that comes and goes?

That would make me feel sorry for the individual.

Second question:

What if such a condition arises AFTER ordaining for the first time?

What if a monk enters overall healthy, but gets a heart illness or cancer later on?

What happens to him?

That's something I've wanted to ask for a while now. :anjali:
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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby appicchato » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:48 pm

Annapurna wrote:Would it be impossible to ordain if you have a harmless condition that comes and goes?

No...
What if a monk enters overall healthy, but gets a heart illness or cancer later on?
What happens to him?

Depends on who, and where, he is...someone with a 'name' living in a large city will be covered for sure...a recluse, living in a hinterland, may, or may not, have the support necessary (for your examples) and is pretty much on his own...

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby Ytrog » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:08 pm

Was epilepsi a recognized condition in those days? :O

If I remember correctly the rule that parents need to give permission is based upon the fact that people had a responsibility for their parents and their livelyhood and that parents need to relieve their child of that responsibility. Am I correct?

These days that is not really a big factor anymore now that people are more supported by the government when they grow old or something happens to them. Would that rule still be strictly applied these days? It was said that the Maha Nikaya is not that strict. Does this include the Ajahn Chah lineage in this respect?
Is there anything possible when parents refuse? An appeal of some kind?

I do believe that most parents want their children to be happy in their lives and wouldn't refuse if someone is really serious. Otherwise you can try hanging in a tree and threatening to let go of the branch. That is a way to ordain if your parents refuse. :tongue:
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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby nalandaleong » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:20 am

sorry, not very sure of the requisites.
What if both parents are deceased ?
What if the spouse or children object ?
Is it still possible to be ordained under such circumstances ?

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby JimKai » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:44 pm

Annapurna wrote:Hi, may I ask something too?

What is meant with this?
Have you got eczema?


Eczema seems in many cases a harmless and not contageous condition that doesn't require much medical attention...it can come and go.

Would it be impossible to ordain if you have a harmless condition that comes and goes?

That would make me feel sorry for the individual.


I've been doing research on this subject for quite a while now, because I have eczema (though not the most serious kind) and I've contemplated becoming a monk for a few years now.

In Buddhanet's e-book library there is a pdf file written by two senior thai monks, which contains the ordination procedure. On the bottom of page 35 there is an editor's note, which clearly states that eczema is not what is meant by the pali word 'kilaso'. In this brochure it is translated as ringworm (a translation which I've seen elsewhere as well), which is a contagious fungal infection. The link is: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ordination.pdf

I searched google for an accurate meaning for 'kilaso' and in 'A Dictionary of the Pali Language" by R.C. Childers it is translated as "A cutaneous complaint, dry leprosy." This would verify the editor's statement in the previous book, that indeed the word refers to a fungal infection (which leprosy is as well).

Here is the link to the translation http://books.google.fi/booksid=xl3MZjR6 ... &q&f=false

Could someone verify this for me? Do you have any first-hand experiences? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby Ytrog » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:58 pm

Could they, in those days, distinguis between eczema and a fungal infection? :thinking:
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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby JimKai » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:50 pm

Ytrog wrote:Could they, in those days, distinguis between eczema and a fungal infection? :thinking:

I don't think so, no. In this age, however, the distinction has to be made. Personally I would assume that they are referring to ringworm/other fungal infections instead of eczema, because, as said, eczema requires little medical attention and is obviosly not contagious. In those days I understand that it will have been much more debilitating, but it seems strange that it would be an obstacle to ordination. There was some other source that commented that if there are blots of red and dry skin, which are not spreading further and are not a serious threat to the applicant's health, the applicant can go forth.

Sorry for the off-topic.

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby Bankei » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:13 pm

It is possible to ordain without parent's permission.

I ordained into the Mahanikaya in Thailand without having my parent's permission. Although they would have given it, I just used my Thai 'parents' for the ceremony.

There is also a 'loophole' whereby a candidate can ordain without the permission by threatening to harm himself.
See
Crosby, Kate
2005 "Only if you let go of that Tree: Ordination without Parental Consent according to Theravåda Vinaya." Buddhist Studies Review

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Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Postby Ytrog » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:39 am

Isn't using those Thai "parents" a form of deceit or did the monks know? Is this customary in Thailand?
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.


mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments


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