Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
mettafuture
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

BlackBird wrote:I haven't read the thread, mettafuture. But I think you'll get much more bang for your buck if you order the Majjhima instead of Jhana advice from Mr. Snyder.
You're probably right, but, from what I've read, I think Mr. Snyder's book may be able to help me improve on my 4 elements and brahma-vihara contemplations until I'm able to (or choose to) meet up with a teacher again.
In truth there's no magic bullet to Samadhi. You watch the breath, you lose focus, you bring attention back to the breath, rinse and repeat until it sticks for a while and voila.
Don't get me started on breath meditation... :D
The Majjhima on the other hand, if read thoroughly, will give you a lot of knowledge about what is and is not the Buddha's message. You start applying the message to your day to day life and it's a real joy when a verse from a sutta pops into your head and you suddenly understand it on deeper level. That's priceless stuff.
I completely agree, but I'm currently at a point in practice where I need less advice on right livelihood, and more advice on right concentration. I've made a lot of progress with metta meditation, and I'd like to look deeper into some of the other practices.
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mettafuture,
mettafuture wrote:I've already studied a lot of dhamma, and I think it's about time I focus more on practice.
What makes you assume that Stephen Snyder would give better practical advice on the Dhamma than the suttas do?
I don't. :)

I know the suttas would be better at giving practical advice. Problem is, I'm not sure which Nikaya has the suttas I need to improve my 4 elements and brahma-vihara contemplations.
On what basis do you differentiate between "Dhamma" and "practice"?
By "Dhamma" I was referring to the teachings, and by "practice" I was referring to meditation. Minor misstep in wording.
Perhaps you mean the differentiation between "study" and "cultivation"?
Yes.
Again, if that's what you meant, why Stephen Snyder over the Majjhima Nikaya?
Because Stephen Snyder has a nice little 147 page book that highlights the exact topics I need to improve my meditation practice. However, if someone can tell me which Nikaya has the most advice or instruction on how to contemplate the 4 elements and the brahma-viharas, I'd gladly consider getting that Nikaya.
Is Stephen Snyder more adept at mental cultivation than the Buddha?
Of course not.
Vepacitta wrote:Sometimes 'extra curricular' writings are helpful when learning about jhanas - then they should be compared to the suttas. They are an aid (to me).
Agreed. Commentaries can also help decipher the sometimes dense and complex language of the suttas.
I can't speak to Stephen Snyder. I do know that Nana posted some excellent on-line resources about jhana meditation - look in the suttanta meditation thread - helpful articles by Aj. Thanissaro and others.
Thank you. I'll give it a peek.
For sutta study, as I already mentioned - something about the Samyutta Nikaya 'clicks' for me.
I love the wording of the Samyutta Nikaya. But I just can't afford a $60 book set right now. :(
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by alan »

Thanissaro's books are free, and delightful.
Why wade through thousands of pages when you can get his edit?
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alan,
alan wrote:Thanissaro's books are free, and delightful.
Why wade through thousands of pages when you can get his edit?
No one person (unless they are an arahant) is completely impartial and correct regarding their interpretation of the Dhamma. Even different arahants may have been liberated by different aspects of the teaching. Therefore, it is good to consult various sources if possible, even to the point of seeking alternative translations on key suttas. All the moreso if we're not dealing with arahants...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by alan »

How alternative can they possibly be?
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by alan »

It's not like we are dealing with completely different takes on a big idea--I'm all for getting differing opinions. But translations need not vary in such a way.
So I'll ask again--why wade through thousands of pages, when you can get a good version, free?

I'm completely satisfied that Thanissaro is far more aware than me, or anyone else I've ever encountered.
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by alan »

So I'll continue to cherish my well worn books. Which were free.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alan,
alan wrote:I'm completely satisfied that Thanissaro is far more aware than me, or anyone else I've ever encountered.
Well if you're only going to try one translator/author, you could certainly do worse! Wings To Awakening is a very good compendium.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Vepacitta
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 3:58 pm
Location: Somewhere on the slopes of Mt. Meru

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by Vepacitta »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Alan,
alan wrote:Thanissaro's books are free, and delightful.
Why wade through thousands of pages when you can get his edit?
No one person (unless they are an arahant) is completely impartial and correct regarding their interpretation of the Dhamma. Even different arahants may have been liberated by different aspects of the teaching. Therefore, it is good to consult various sources if possible, even to the point of seeking alternative translations on key suttas. All the moreso if we're not dealing with arahants...

Metta,
Retro. :)
I agree Retro - I tend to be a "Ven Bodhi-ist" - however, I like comparing Aj. Thanissaro's translations with his - I also find that Ven. Thanissaro has some very interesting 'takes' on various concepts that have helped me to look at things in a new, fresh way.

V.
I'm your friendly, neighbourhood Asura
User avatar
mettafuture
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

I recently discovered an entire section in the Samyutta Nikaya dedicated to the elements (I think). It's listed as XIV Dhatu Samyutta. Would anyone happen to know anything about this section?
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mikenz66 »

mettafuture wrote: I know the suttas would be better at giving practical advice. Problem is, I'm not sure which Nikaya has the suttas I need to improve my 4 elements and brahma-vihara contemplations.
I'm going to disagree with our friends here and suggest that you won't find detailed instructions in the Suttas. The stock expositions of Brahmaviharas generally go like this:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#brahma1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"That disciple of the noble ones, headman — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness imbued with good will, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through good will is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there.
[Similarly for compassion... appreciation... equanimity... ]
What you will get from the Suttas, in my experience, is huge amount of material that helps keep one on the path, once one has some basic practise going, and to check whether things are working. I'm sometimes surprised to find myself thinking "this experience is really what the Buddha was on about in such-and-such Sutta..."

As this Sutta advises:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: ...
As far as the Brahmaviharas are concerned, most modern instructions have digested the advice in the Visuddhimagga and put it into a more succinct form, which may be found in many books or on-line resources, e.g. here: http://buddhanet.net/metta.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Such advice may help to appreciate and put into practise the words of the Blessed One:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .amar.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Even as a mother protects with her life Her child,
her only child,
So with a boundless heart Should one cherish all living beings;
Radiating kindness over the entire world:
Spreading upwards to the skies,
And downwards to the depths;
Outwards and unbounded
:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mettafuture
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

The 4 elements contemplations seem to be a little more detailed though.

Here's a quote from the Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta (MN 140):
"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind.
I see section 14 on the elements is missing from Access To Insight's Samyutta Nikaya. I'm wondering if it would be worth spending $60 just to see that section, and the other texts. Or if it would be better to just get Stephen Snyder's $13 book. Mmm... :D
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mikenz66 »

Some of the SN14.X Suttas are in Bhikkhu Bodhi's "In the Buddhas Words" in Chapter IX, "Shining the light of wisdom". He also has MN140 there. Strange that there are none listed in the SN section of Access to Insight and none in either Ven Nanananda's http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el183.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or Maurice Walshes's http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el318.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; collections of Suttas from the SN.

You can read them on-line here: http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
13. Dhātu Saṃyutta
However, translations on that sites are sometimes a little hard to follow...

Mike
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by BlackBird »

Here's an interesting Sutta from the Bojjhangasangyutta, Mahavagga of the Sangyutta Nikaya. It's a lesser known job, but the only Sutta (to my knowledge) within the Nikayas which is vastly different from the stock formulation of metta practice:
"And how, monks, does a monk cultivate the heart's release by loving-kindness? What is its goal, its excellence, its fruit and its outcome?

"In this case, monks, a monk cultivates the enlightenment-factor of mindfulness accompanied by loving-kindness and similarly the enlightenment-factors of investigation-of-states, energy, rapture, tranquillity, concentration, equanimity, accompanied by loving-kindness which is based on detachment, dispassion, leading to maturity of surrender. If he wishes to dwell perceiving the repulsive in what is not repulsive, he dwells thus perceiving the repulsive. If he wishes to dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in what is repulsive, he dwells thus perceiving the unrepulsive. If he wishes to dwell perceiving the repulsive both in what is repulsive and what is not repulsive, if he wishes to dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in both... he dwells thus. If he wishes, avoiding both the repulsive and unrepulsive, to dwell equanimous,[270] mindful and clearly aware,[271] he dwells thus, equanimous, mindful and clearly aware, or, attaining the heart's release called 'beautiful'[272] he abides there. I declare that the heart's release by loving-kindness has the beautiful for its excellence. This is the attainment of a wise monk who penetrates to no higher release.[273] And how, monks, does a monk cultivate release by compassion? What is its goal, its excellence, its fruit and its outcome? In this, monks, a monk cultivates the enlightenment-factors of mindfulness... equanimity accompanied by compassion... [as above]... he dwells thus, equanimous, mindful, clearly aware or, by passing utterly beyond all perceptions of objects, by the going-down of perceptions of sensory reactions,[274] by disregarding perceptions of diversity, thinking 'space is infinite,' he attains and dwells in the sphere of infinite space.[275] I declare that the heart's release by compassion has the sphere of infinite space for its excellence. This is the attainment of a wise monk who penetrates to no higher release.

"And how, monks, does a monk cultivate the heart's release by sympathetic joy? What is its goal, its excellence, its fruit and its outcome?

"In this, monks, a monk cultivates the enlightenment-factors of mindfulness... equanimity accompanied by sympathetic joy... [as above...] he dwells thus, equanimous, mindful, clearly aware or, by passing utterly beyond the sphere of infinite space, thinking 'consciousness is infinite,' he attains and dwells in the sphere of infinite consciousness.[276] I declare that the heart's release by sympathetic joy has the sphere of infinite consciousness for its excellence. This is the attainment of a wise monk who penetrates to no higher release.

"And how, monks, does a monk cultivate the heart's release by equanimity? What is its goal, its excellence, its fruit and its outcome?

"In this case, monks, a monk cultivates the enlightenment-factors of mindfulness, investigation-of-states, energy, rapture, tranquillity, concentration, equanimity accompanied by equanimity[277] which is based on detachment, dispassion, leading to maturity of surrender. If he wishes to dwell... [as above...] he dwells thus, equanimous, mindful and clearly aware. Or by passing utterly beyond the sphere of infinite consciousness, thinking 'there is nothing,' he attains and dwells in the sphere of nothingness.[278] I declare that the heart's release by equanimity had the sphere of nothingness for its excellence. This is the attainment of a wise monk who penetrates to no higher release."
- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#vagga-5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unfortunately this is just an extract, but you get the gist. For those with a copy of Ven. Bodhi's translation at the ready, you'll find it on page 1607. As a side note to this side note, one might rightly ask how one is to cultivate equanimity accompanied by compassion, the two would seem to be at cross purposes. In my opinion this could mean that equanimity as an enlightenment factor, is different to equanimity as a brahma vihara & kammaṭṭhāna. But I am just theorizing and chucking ideas around.

:focus:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
mettafuture
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

mikenz66 wrote:Some of the SN14.X Suttas are in Bhikkhu Bodhi's "In the Buddhas Words" in Chapter IX, "Shining the light of wisdom". He also has MN140 there. Strange that there are none listed in the SN section of Access to Insight and none in either Ven Nanananda's http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el183.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or Maurice Walshes's http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el318.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; collections of Suttas from the SN.
Probably because most teachers think the 4 elements are too Indian for us Westerners. Even Ajahn Brahm completely skips over the elements in the Satipatthana section of his Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond book. This is why I was so ecstatic when I found Stephen Snyder's book, because it's one of the FEW English resources I've come across that details not only breath meditation, but also brahma-vihara and 4 elements meditation.
You can read them on-line here: http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
13. Dhātu Saṃyutta
However, translations on that sites are sometimes a little hard to follow...

Mike
Thank you! I'm going to look through those right now.
Last edited by mettafuture on Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi BlackBird,

Thank you for drawing our attention to that very interesting Sutta.
BlackBird wrote: As a side note to this side note, one might rightly ask how one is to cultivate equanimity accompanied by compassion, the two would seem to be at cross purposes. In my opinion this could mean that equanimity as an enlightenment factor, is different to equanimity as a brahma vihara & kammaṭṭhāna. But I am just theorizing and chucking ideas around.
The standard line would be that they tend to balance each other. Equanimity prevents the compassion from becoming merely sadness. Compassion prevents the equanimity from becoming merely a detachment. It might be interesting to examine to what extent that idea is implicit in the Suttas, or commentaries, and to what extent it is a later development. I don't really see such ideas expressed in the Visuddhimagga, which focusses on attaining jhana based on the brahmaviharas.

Mike
Post Reply