Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

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alan
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by alan »

Didn't mean to give the impression that I don't dig BB--his footnotes are valuable. If money is no object, go ahead and get it.
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

mettafuture wrote:. How important, in your opinion, is it to have a complete Nikaya? I've been eye-balling Bhikkhu Nanamoli's and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Middle Length Discourses on Amazon for the last couple of weeks. Should I get it? Am I missing out on any amazing suttas by not having it?
If you can afford it, I would recommend buying a copy - there's something special about having a book in your hands. Just be aware that there are different ways of translating the Pali, so I'd advise not getting too attached to a particular forms of words.

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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
mettafuture wrote:. How important, in your opinion, is it to have a complete Nikaya? I've been eye-balling Bhikkhu Nanamoli's and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Middle Length Discourses on Amazon for the last couple of weeks. Should I get it? Am I missing out on any amazing suttas by not having it?
If you can afford it, I would recommend buying a copy
I've been thinking about this a lot since making this thread, and I kind of agree with Individual. Why should we have to spend between $30 and $60 for discourses that the Buddha gave to the world for free? All of the Nikayas from Wisdom Publications have been digitized; each book is available in epub and Kindle format. Why not just released these files online? Instead, the electronic versions cost almost as much as the hardcovers, and are locked by DRM.

I think I'd rather give a big donation to Access To Insight. They've been doing GREAT work as of late, and it's all available for free.
Just be aware that there are different ways of translating the Pali, so I'd advise not getting too attached to a particular forms of words.
Very good advice.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mettafuture,

Ah, but if A2I rely on donations (either from users, or self-supported by the owner), it's really not much different to other mechanisms for distributing the Dhamma, is it?

In other words, there is always a cost involved... whether it be borne by the recipient or the giver.

Wisdom Publications, who print Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are a not for profit entity... what you are paying for when you buy the book, is the cost of printing, research, typesetting, editing, distribution etc. and providing a humble income to those involved in the production of the book so they can put food on the table and pay their bills.

In this instance, no one is skimming profit out of the Dhamma, so what is there to complain about?

By all means, donate to Access To Insight, it would certainly be a meritorious deed, but do not over-simplify the economics involved to the point where you're dismissing those who are doing good service to the Dhamma via other media.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mettafuture,

Ah, but if A2I rely on donations (either from users, or self-supported by the owner), it's really not much different to other mechanisms for distributing the Dhamma, is it?
I can't even find the donations page on Access To Insight. Maybe they're not even asking for donations, which makes them all the better, and makes me want to give to them even more.
In other words, there is always a cost involved... whether it be borne by the recipient or the giver.
Rendering a translation of a Pali text into English costs more time than it does money. And to save on printing costs, they could distribute the books electronically.
Wisdom Publications, who print Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are a not for profit entity... what you are paying for when you buy the book, is the cost of printing,
Ebooks can eliminate this step. And, as I pointed out above, all of the Nikayas are already available in epub and kindle format. Why not put those online for half or a third of the cost of the hardcovers?
research
Research by who? The monks who translate the texts? Are they making money from Wisdom Publications?
typesetting, editing
Access To Insight is typeset and edited by 1 man and a handful of volunteers.

If Wisdom Publications needed help with typesetting and editing, I would gladly donate my services, free of charge. I'm sure others would be open to doing the same.
distribution etc.
For the heavy hardcovers, sure, but epub and kindle books can be hosted on mediafire for free.
and providing a humble income to those involved in the production of the book so they can put food on the table and pay their bills.
I understand this point, but something doesn't feel right about seeing a set of the Buddha's discourses with a $60 price tag stamped on it. This doesn't seem very Buddhist to me.
In this instance, no one is skimming profit out of the Dhamma, so what is there to complain about?

By all means, donate to Access To Insight, it would certainly be a meritorious deed, but do not over-simplify the economics involved to the point where you're dismissing those who are doing good service to the Dhamma via other media.
I'm not dismissing anything. It does costs a lot to print and distribute heavy books. What I'm wondering about is why the electronic versions cost almost as much as the hardcovers.
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bodom
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by bodom »

I would rather Wisdoms Teachings of the Buddha series as I prefer Bodhi's translations over Thanissaro's. Also not every sutta is available on A2i and if im ever cross referencing it is real convenient to pick up one the Nikayas and find what I need. Plus having the complete Nikayas just looks oh so sweet sitting on my bookshelf! Cant wait for the Anguttara to complete the set!

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

bodom wrote:I would rather Wisdoms Teachings of the Buddha series as I prefer Bodhi's translations over Thanissaro's.
Same here. But I can't see myself spending $30 or $60 for the word of the Buddha. I'd rather take the time to learn Pali.
Also not every sutta is available on A2i -
True. My copy of In The Buddha's Words makes up for that.
Plus having the complete Nikayas just looks oh so sweet sitting on my bookshelf!
Ereaders have come a long way. The Kindle and Nook are easy on the eyes, lightweight, can last for 2 weeks on a single charge, and can hold hundreds of books.
Last edited by mettafuture on Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mettafuture wrote:My copy of In The Buddha's Words makes up for that.
Just as no translator translates independently of their views (as discussed earlier), compendiums which are hand-selected by translators aren't independent of the translators views either... just something to be mindful of.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
mettafuture wrote:My copy of In The Buddha's Words makes up for that.
Just as no translator translates independently of their views (as discussed earlier), compendiums which are hand-selected by translators aren't independent of the translators views either... just something to be mindful of.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Very true, and I agree.

But I just realized that the suttas I refer to regularly can already be found in the resources I have:
  • DN 31: Sigalovada Sutta
    MN 2: Sabbasava Sutta
    MN 9: Sammaditthi Sutta
    MN 10: Satipatthana Sutta
    MN 140: Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta
    and so on...
I have Access To Insight, In The Buddha's Words, and Venerable Analayo's Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization. I think if I were to get a simple mediation manual, and a little personal aid from a teacher, my liberation arsenal will be complete.

I apologize to everyone who helped me in this thread. I really wanted to order a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya. But the more I looked at the price of Majjhima Nikaya, and especially at the price of the Samyutta Nikaya, I just... Ugh...

:jedi:
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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

UPDATE: I noticed that all of these suttas (3, 5, 6, 15, 16, 17, 23, 25, 29, 30, 31, 32, 35, 37, 38, 40, 42, 46, 47, 48, 50, 51, 55, 56, 64, 65, 67, 68, 69, 71, 73, 76, 77, 79, 80, 81, 83, 84, 85, 88, 89, 91, 92, 94, 96, 98, 99, 100, 102, 103, 104, 112, 113, 114, 115, 120, 123, 124, 127, 128, 129, 130, 132, 133, 134, 139, 142, 144, 145, 150, 151) are missing from Access To Insight's Majjhima Nikaya. That's a LOT more than I thought.

I also came to the realization that having an electronic version of a book as big as the Majjhima Nikaya might not be very practical because of the long time it takes to do an index search on most ereaders. When it comes to dhamma books, I usually refer to the index regularly.

So right now I'm trying to decide on 2 things: Is there anything in these 71 suttas that I could use to improve my understanding of the dhamma, and to enhance the quality of my meditation? Or do these suttas just go over familiar topics in ways I've likely read before?
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by Individual »

mettafuture wrote:UPDATE: I noticed that all of these suttas (3, 5, 6, 15, 16, 17, 23, 25, 29, 30, 31, 32, 35, 37, 38, 40, 42, 46, 47, 48, 50, 51, 55, 56, 64, 65, 67, 68, 69, 71, 73, 76, 77, 79, 80, 81, 83, 84, 85, 88, 89, 91, 92, 94, 96, 98, 99, 100, 102, 103, 104, 112, 113, 114, 115, 120, 123, 124, 127, 128, 129, 130, 132, 133, 134, 139, 142, 144, 145, 150, 151) are missing from Access To Insight's Majjhima Nikaya. That's a LOT more than I thought.

I also came to the realization that having an electronic version of a book as big as the Majjhima Nikaya might not be very practical because of the long time it takes to do an index search on most ereaders. When it comes to dhamma books, I usually refer to the index regularly.

So right now I'm trying to decide on 2 things: Is there anything in these 71 suttas that I could use to improve my understanding of the dhamma, and to enhance the quality of my meditation? Or do these suttas just go over familiar topics in ways I've likely read before?
It would be interesting to find out why they've excluded these. I would guess that either they do not agree with the accuracy of certain translators or John Bullit is simply very busy, and doesn't have time to add the new stuff.

At the three sites in my signature, you can find virtually the whole sutta pitaka for free -- just missing a lot of the supplemental KN stuff, a lot of which apparently hasn't even been translated yet? The suttas in the KN are later suttas anyway and include stuff like the jatakas and commentaries.
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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

Individual wrote:It would be interesting to find out why they've excluded these. I would guess that either they do not agree with the accuracy of certain translators or John Bullit is simply very busy, and doesn't have time to add the new stuff.
Maybe their anthology covers all of the important topics, and the missing suttas are just more of the same? Or maybe, like you said, they don't have time? Or maybe they just don't think those suttas need to be translated right now, or would appeal to their Western readers? If the last one is true, and those 71 suttas cover topics that could help me, I'll order the Majjhima Nikaya hardcover from Amazon right now.
At the three sites in my signature, you can find virtually the whole sutta pitaka for free -- just missing a lot of the supplemental KN stuff, a lot of which apparently hasn't even been translated yet? The suttas in the KN are later suttas anyway and include stuff like the jatakas and commentaries.
Thank you. I'll read through those links, and post my findings here later.
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mikenz66 »

mettafuture wrote: Maybe their anthology covers all of the important topics, and the missing suttas are just more of the same? Or maybe, like you said, they don't have time?
Access to Insight contains largely Suttas that Thanissaro Bhikkhu has gotten around to translating, supplemented by translations that appeared in various Buddhist Publication Society publications. Some of the translations only appear under the Authors, e.g. Nanananda, Walshe, Ireland, not in the main Tipitika listing.

The Sutta Pitaka does contain a lot of repetition, as you'd expect from an oral transmission, so it's by no means obvious to me that attempting to read every single Sutta is more useful than studying a much smaller number carefully, with the aid of good translations and good notes. However, one could certainly point to some interesting Suttas that are missing from Access to Insight, e.g.

[MN-38] Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta: The Greater Discourse on the Destruction of Craving.
A bhikkhu named Sati promulgates the pernicious view that the same consciousness transmigrates from life to life. The Buddha reprimands him with a lengthy discourse on dependent origination, showing how all phenomena of existence arise and cease through conditions.
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... /mn-38.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

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Not all the suttas in KN are later additions Individual.

You've got the:
- Dhammapada
- Udana
- Itivuttaka
- Suttanipata
- Theragatha
- Therigatha

All of which show all the hallmarks of being contemporaneous with the first four Nikayas.
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mikenz66 »

Especially since several of the Suttas in the final chapter of the Sutta Nipata are discussed in other Suttas in the SN and AN.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#vagga-5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... vagga.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Five discourses — one in the Samyutta Nikaya, four in the Anguttara — discuss specific verses in the set, and a sixth discourse tells of a lay woman who made a practice of rising before dawn to chant the full set of sixteen dialogues.
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