something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Was he correct in his logic? I haven't seen any argument here that convinces me otherwise. Sure have seen the same old emotional responses, however.
So what is meant by something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval? Is the enduring thingie really unchanged?
By the way, did you know it is not possible to ever get where you want to go?
Zeno shows the way there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You still misread Ven P's msg.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by alan »

Well I hope you can tell me what it was meant to say.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Paññāsikhara »

tiltbillings wrote:
alan wrote:Was he correct in his logic? I haven't seen any argument here that convinces me otherwise. Sure have seen the same old emotional responses, however.
So what is meant by something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval? Is the enduring thingie really unchanged?
By the way, did you know it is not possible to ever get where you want to go?
Zeno shows the way there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You still misread Ven P's msg.
I'm well aware of Zeno's Paradox. Though after consideration, I simply do not think that it is actually that relevant to the question at hand here, and does not at all refute the argument I posted earlier. This is for a number of reasons, but basically they are not talking about the same thing for a start.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Well I hope you can tell me what it was meant to say.
You can discuss that with Ven P, but you do have the problem, if you are taking Nanavira's msg literally, as it is written, of how something that is changing stops changing for at least a certain interval, then starts changing again. Basically, the problem is that Nanvira's point is not very well made, to understate it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
There is no need to establish functional things as anything more than mere nominal designations (paññattimatta).
5heaps does not quite get that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by alan »

Raise your hand if you understand Nanavira.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Nyana »

BlackBird wrote:
Nanavira Thera wrote: I think I told you some time ago (in connexion with Huxley and chemical mysticism) that the Mahāyānist view can be summed up in two propositions, the first common to all mystics, and the second supposed to represent the Buddha's solution to the problem raised by the first.

(i) Behind the ordinary appearance of things there lies Reality, which it is the task of the Yogi to seek. Existentialist philosophers do not go as far as this: if they admit such a Reality—Jaspers, for example—they qualify it by saying that it is necessarily out of reach. See Preface (m).

(ii) Reality is the non-existence of things. In other words, things do not really exist, they only appear to do so on account of our ignorance (avijjā). (George Borrow[1] tells of a Spanish gypsy in the last century whose grandfather held this view, so it hardly needs a Buddha to declare it. It seems to be closely allied to the Hindu notion of māyā—that all is illusion.)

Now the Pali texts say that the Buddha taught anicca/dukkha/anattā, and the average Theravādin, monk or layman, seems to take for granted that aniccatā, or impermanence, means that things are perpetually changing, that they do not remain the same for two consecutive moments. Failing to make the necessary distinctions (see PATICCASAMUPPĀDA [c]), they understand this as implying perpetual flux of everything all the time. This, of course, destroys the principle of self-identity, 'A is A'; for unless something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval of time you cannot even make the assertion 'this is A' since the word 'is' has lost its meaning. Bypassing dukkha as something we all know about, they arrive at anattā as meaning 'without self-identity'. (This is Mr. Wettimuny's theme,[2] following Dahlke. I do not think he is aware that he is putting himself among the Mahāyānists.) Granted the premise that anicca means 'in continuous flux', this conclusion is impeccable. Unfortunately, in doing away with the principle of self-identity, you do away with things—including change, which is also a thing. This means that for the puthujjana, who does not see aniccatā, things exist, and for the arahat, who has seen aniccatā, things do not exist. Thus the Mahāyānist contention is proved.
Hi Blackbird & all,

I would suspect that Ven. Ñāṇavīra was probably taking issue with the classical Theravāda theory of radical momentariness. But this theory doesn't negate true, inherent existence (sabhāvasiddhi). Thus, classical Theravāda is a realist school.

It's also worth mentioning that mahāyānikas refute realist positions regarding inherent existence (sabhāva) either by negating the apprehender, apprehended, and apprehension (grāhaka, grāhya, & grahaṇa) in the case of Yogācāra, or by thorough penetration of conditioned arising (paṭiccasamuppāda, pratītyasamutpāda) in the case of Mādhyamaka. Neither of these schools rely on reasonings involving impermanence or momentary change in order to negate realist positions regarding inherent existence.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by alan »

Do you understand him?
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mikenz66
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Alan,

You don't seem to be reading what has been written.
alan wrote:Let's remember that Nanavira's statement was in reference to a position held by the commentaries, and he made it to point out why he had changed his practice. He is opposed to the prevailing ideology, and challenges it. Good for him. I like his attitude.

Was he correct in his logic? I haven't seen any argument here that convinces me otherwise. Sure have seen the same old emotional responses, however.
Before even examining his logic it might be useful to ask:
1. Is his representation of Mahayana thought ("Reality is the non-existence of things.") correct?
2. Is he actually representing the Commentaries correctly. He says: "...the average Theravādin, monk or layman, seems to take for granted that aniccatā, or impermanence, means that things are perpetually changing, that they do not remain the same for two consecutive moments." So is he criticising people who have studied the issues in detail, or those who haven't?
3. Was he aware of the extensive discussion on these points amongst the early Buddhist schools? I'm no expert on this, but I gave a summary above that indicated that these issues have been considered for over 2000 years. Not that that means that the answers from way back when were completely adequate, but it's clear that scholars from various schools were well aware of such problems, and proposed various approaches to it. I'm reasonably confident that the Abhidhamma text "Points of Controversy" will have a much more extensive and sophisticated discussion than this brief letter. I'll check on that when I have the opportunity.

I'm certainly not against well organised and reasoned critical analyses of the Theravada position(s). I've waded though a lot of material from Ven Nananandanda, for example, which I find quite interesting. You might have noticed that I've posted many quotes and some Sutta translations from him (more Suttas to come, it's very interesting to compare his translations with those from other scholars).

I'll leave the analysis of Ven Nanavira's logic to those more knowledgeable than me. Geoff/Nana seems to have just said that Ven Nanavaira's logic is faulty in the sense that it doesn't actually refute the Therevada position. And since Geoff clearly is no apologist for the Theravada position, perhaps you should take that seriously.

:anjali:
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Nyana »

5heaps wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:in both forward and reverse sequence.
what exactly is this referring to?
Conditioned arising (paṭiccasamuppāda) in forward sequence (anuloma) and reverse sequence (paṭiloma). This is how one penetrates the four noble truths.
5heaps wrote:
There is no need to establish functional things as anything more than mere nominal designations (paññattimatta).
you dont mean that objects are just designations right?
Of course things are just nominal designations.
5heaps wrote:you mean that subtle objects (such as cause and effect of physical things, karma, etc) do not need to be directly realized beyond the level of conception for insight to occur?
I mean that the entire notion of inherently existent things is rooted in ignorance. This is why one has to penetrate conditioned arising in reverse sequence in order to eliminate the view that things have inherent existence. And an arahant has done just that. Therefore an arahant can use conventional language without forgetting that s/he is merely employing nominal designations.

All the best,

Geoff
Last edited by Nyana on Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cooran
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

Have we got a copy of '''A Critical Examination of ~Naa.naviira Thera's "A Note on Pa.ticcasamuppaada"' - Bhikkhu Bodhi anywhere on Dhamma Wheel? and would it be helpful in this thread? (sorry, I haven't read the whole thread).

with metta
Chris
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by mikenz66 »

cooran wrote: Have we got a copy of '''A Critical Examination of ~Naa.naviira Thera's "A Note on Pa.ticcasamuppaada"' - Bhikkhu Bodhi anywhere on Dhamma Wheel? and would it be helpful in this thread? (sorry, I haven't read the whole thread).
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 791#p73859" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And Ven Nanavira's Note: http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=62" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by BlackBird »

Kim O'Hara wrote: There are, in fact, other possible positions to take: A and not-A;
Oh it's certainly possible, but it depends whether you want to work within the confines of the laws of thought. If you do, then unfortunately you're breaking them in such an assertion, and A must in fact be either A or B but not both, nor neither.

metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by alan »

Goodnight all.
Last edited by alan on Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by BlackBird »

cooran wrote:and would it be helpful in this thread? (sorry, I haven't read the whole thread).
Nope, Paticcasamupada hasn't cropped up at all. That is mostly what Ven. Bodhi's criticisms are concerned with.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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