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Vipassana - Insight Knowledge - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
fijiNut
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby fijiNut » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:26 pm


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christopher:::
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby christopher::: » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:47 pm

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

Sanghamitta
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:02 am

In a nutshell one of the problems is not simply describing first hand knowledge of the fruits of practice, as Christopher says above. We wouldnt after all go a physician who refused to talk about his qualifications.
The problem arises when westerners in particular get their heads into the whole "ariya" concept.
To a degree which is marked and partially unconscious we have been conditioned to strive to become top banana. This can set up a whole counterdrag to Dhamma practice.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:10 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:31 am

Well Tilt, Fijinut, others,

It is basically that Bhanga nana, is a specific insight knowledge that arises after a set and distinct sequential series of developments occur in the mind. This is like saying you got to have enough strength to run 30 meters before you can run 50, 80 or 100. The strength to run, progressively longer distances develop progressively. To say that you will run 100meters before you can do 30 or 50 is not meaningful.

There is a set of 'purifications'/visuddhi (developments of the mind) one must go through to develop bhanga nana.

They are
Sila visuddhi- development of good basic morality/precepts- ie 5 precepts
citta visuddhi- development of samadhi to a hindrance free level or 1st jhana.
ditti visuddhi- seeing everything naturally in terms of nama and rupa (mental and material contribution in every act of perception). Nama-rupa paricceda nana (delineation of mental and material components of perception) arises at this level.
kankhavitarana visuddhi- the development of 'overcoming doubt'. This occurs with seeing how nama and rupa are causally related and arise in a causally related manner. The further development at this stage is seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta by seeing those very same effects as impermanent, therefore unsatisfactory, and due to all these reasosn nonself. ie- doubt about it overcome
Paccaya-pariggaha nana- insight knowledge of understanding causality arises in this stage
sammassana nana- insight knoweldge of seeing all things (perceived in the immediate environment and not- through inference) as anicca, dukkha, anatta arises at this stage

udaya-vyaya nana- insight knoweldge of arising and passing away (immature stage)- along with the pitfalls of the vipassana sub-defilements

maggamagganana dassana visuddhi- where one develops the mature knoweldge of arising and passing away and understands where the true path lies

patipadanana dassana visuddhi- further development of the true path. This is where bhanga nana arises.

Now these are natural, set developments of the mind as much as the second jhana follows the first. You cannot devise short cuts to it as that would be impossible.


I will write more later.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Phra Chuntawongso
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:06 am

Bhanga nana-To see cessation of rupa and nama through observation of rising and falling.Gaining knowledge that arising and ceasing are not stable or continuous-there is nothing to hold on to.
Is rising/falling always there?
Do your hands feel light or heavy?
Do your hands feel so light they're not even there?
Do parts of your body disappear?

Maybe this helps.I hope so.I am not sure if this is the same description as Bhanga as described by Sri Goenka,as that practice of vipassana is not the one that I practice(Mahasi)and will leave it up to others who know this technique to say.
With metta
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning

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Ben
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Ben » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:25 pm

Hi Bhante,
Its very similar - almost identical.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Phra Chuntawongso
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:29 pm

And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning

rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:30 am

Now the visuddhi- Purifications are meant as sequential developments of the mind. An important aspect of them is that you cannot get to the following one before completing the previous one. This is nicely depicted by the 'relay of chariots' simile from where this process is mentioned. That is, a person must catch one chariot and using that chariot, get to the next one. Using a series of chariots in this way, this person completes the journey. It wont be possible to get to a chariot which is further away, without using the chariot which is designated for a particular leg of the journey.

'The relay of chariots'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

So the person must be keeping at least the 5 precepts to a quite good degree ('not splattered, not torn', etc)

Then this person must have consitantly good samadhi which is free from hindrances most of the time, if not the first jhana. In fact I have never seen anyone complete the vipassana nanas without completing the first jhana. This maybe to do with characteristics of the individual which give rise to both (viriya, right view, saddha etc).

There will be no bhanga nana without having these first.

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Ben
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Ben » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:36 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:54 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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mikenz66
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:55 pm

It would be interesting to hear from someone who had extensively practised in Goeka-ji retreats and also Mahasi-style retreats whether Goenka is really addressing the same thing.

Certainly the sequence described in the Visuddhimagga, and summarised by Mahasi Sayadaw http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progress/progress.html has
5. Knowledge of Dissolution (bhanga-ñāna) http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... issolution
as following on from other stages, in particular Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away (udayabbaya-ñāna)

The question in all of this (which I have no idea of the answer) is how linear it is. Sayadaw U Pandita characterises this progress as "Vipassana Jhanas" http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... hanas.html
Talks by teachers such as:
Joseph Goldstein http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/?q ... ana+jhanas
Steve Armstrong http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/170/? ... ana+jhanas
seem to describe these as things one can cycle up and down through, not necessarily a linear progression.

My impression (and minor experience) is that the Mahasi-style instruction does tend to give a reasonably linear progression (though one definitely tends to "fall back" at the end of a retreat) that seems fairly in line with the observations in the Commentaries of how the progression happens. Perhaps other techniques lead to a slightly different progression.

Certainly I had that "body disappearing" thing on my only Goenka retreat three years ago (and it was quite disconcerting at the time ---not just some little hint, it really felt gone...). With the Mahasi technique that I normally use I haven't got quite that effect. I do, however, get what I sometimes describe as "objects breaking up as if under a flickering fluorescent lamp" effect instead... I put these differences down to the way one is taught to pay attention under the two systems.

As you can see from the non-technical language, I'm not an expert at either of these systems. I would be interested to learn more without the discussion descenting into negativity about either practise.

:anjali:
Mike

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Phra Chuntawongso
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:41 pm

And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning

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Ben
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Ben » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:38 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Phra Chuntawongso
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:58 am

Hi Ben.I'm guessing that there are more similarities than there are differences in the 2 methods being discussed.
Same goal.
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning

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Ben
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Ben » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:31 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:17 am

The chosen method to develop 'vipassana' does matter quite a lot. The Ledi sayadaw and Mahasi sayadaw lineages are quite distinct - over several generations. It is well known that even within the same monastary two meditation instructors can vary quite distinctly. Being in the same country doesn't guarantee anything.

Vipassana develops in a certain way as outlined by the visuddhis (different insight knowledge occurr within the visuddhis, including bhanga nana). There is no other way for it to develop. If it does not develop along these lines, then for all purposes what it does is purify the mind, ie - it is samatha.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Ben
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Ben » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:33 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:41 pm

Hi Ben

I will attempt to explain this in a bit more detail. But you really need to download that booklet from my link, as the Venrable does a much better job than I can. Hope your internet speed is back up again. It is valuable reading IMO.

The path to magga-phala ie the first glimpse of nibbana can be viewed as a series of purifications of the mind. That is each preceeding purifcation of the mind opens the door to subsequent ones. This happens in a sequential manner. Starting with Sila, leading to samadhi, then leading to panna.

Now the sequential development of panna is most commonly mentioned in the suttas as anicca, nibbida, viraga, nirodha etc. However there is another much more detailed description of the development of panna via the visuddhis or purifications of the mind. This is particularly relevant for dhamma teachers, those who give instructions (kamatahan) for vipassana meditators, and also to some degree those practitioners who have apparently completed a cycle of vipassana and reached stream entry. The latter can decide for themselves whether they understand the descriptions of the developmental process described well by the likes of Mahasi sayadaw and Ven Matara Nanarama. This allows a certain degree of verification of the process that they have undergone. The meditation instructors have a much greater responsibility in understanding this process at depth and develop sets of questions, and observations of the yogi to determine where they are in the process of unfolding panna/nanas and to acquire the skills required to guide them safely in vipassana.

It takes a certain degree of intelligence to slice through ignorance/avijja (which is what vipassana does) and to bring the process to a completion. It takes even a greater degree of intelligence to determine where another is in this process of unfolding and to guide them. The commentaries are the major literary source of information on the subject, but the more real life evidence is when the nanas start manifesting in yogis who do the practice masterfully. It becomes clearly visible that the descriptions of this unfolding is real and correct.

I have already described the sila-visuddhi and citta-visuddhi (morality and 'concentration') aspects of it.

The next visuddhi is ditti-visuddhi 'purifcation of view'. The major ignorance that is irradiated is the idea that we exist in a 'solid' environment ('gana sanna'). This gets fractured into the understanding that the environment that we live in is created by millions of snap shots from the sense bases, happening so fast as to create a reality. The next step of that is coming to understand that while there is a contribution from the environment (rupa arising) to what we experience a major portion of it is created within our heads (nama arising). This is known as 'nama-rupa paricceda nana'- the nana (dont know why I have become averse to using the term 'insight') of delineating mental and material components of perception. Using the mindful the yogi begins to see this separated out in his act of noting/observing. This requires a great deal of purified samadhi to slow down this process. The Buddha mentions that where there is samadhi there is panna. This is a clear example of that.

I will write more. We can discuss these as we go along if you like.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Ben
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Ben » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:18 pm

Thanks Matheesha
I'm now at my work location where I[ll be for the next 48 hours and I'll download the booklet today.
So far, I haven't seen anything in what you have written that is in conflict with anything SN Goenka teaches. Perhaps there is something in the booklet.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..


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