Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Oh sorry i misread you
What I was trying to say is that for a Buddhist to have the attitude that "all other paths are worthless" is not helpful.
This depends though on what one is "after", if one wants to awaken to the here and now christianity is unhelpful since its about desire

One shouldnt cling to a view of buddhism is right and everything else is wrong, Dhamma is the truth of the way it is, its about reality, this can be understood and taught in lots of different places be it philosophy or religion, just the Buddha understands the Dhamma completely and teaches the path to realise it perfectly while other religions just understand and teach small parts of the Dhamma and dont have deep insight into it

:anjali:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by mikenz66 »

Craig, I think you are still misreading me.
clw_uk wrote:Oh sorry i misread you
What I was trying to say is that for a Buddhist to have the attitude that "all other paths are worthless" is not helpful.
This depends though on what one is "after", if one wants to awaken to the here and now christianity is unhelpful since its about desire
I'm not talking about changing to another path, I'm talking about how I should think and behave as a Buddhist. Having a "superior attitude" towards other people's choices is something that I do my best to avoid.

Furthermore, I don't believe it's accurate to say that Chisitanity is just "about desire". Many Christians that I know appear to be developing kindness, tolerance, and selflessness.

Of course, I can think of Christians who are not. I can also think of Buddhists who are not...

Metta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Furthermore, I don't believe it's accurate to say that Chisitanity is just "about desire". Many Christians that I know appear to be developing kindness, tolerance, and selflessness.

I didnt say they its "just" about desire i said "since its about desire for exsistence"

I dont deny that some do develop those qualities, however there central teachings are rooted in desire, the promise of eternal life made by jesus to all who follow him, is just delight in self and exsistence, heaven and hell are just words and concepts, an expression of the conditioned mind, of samsara

Im not saying that christians are wrong, they might be right but there only right in conditionality, it doesnt lead out of conditionality



I'm not talking about changing to another path, I'm talking about how I should think and behave as a Buddhist. Having a "superior attitude" towards other people's choices is something that I do my best to avoid.
I agree, to think one is superior is conceit and so false view, in relation to me i dont consider my self or my religion superior to say a christian, i just see the founders having different insights and so pointing to different things, Lord Buddha teaches the way to the end of becoming and Jesus teaches the way to good becoming


:anjali:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Individual
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by Individual »

mikenz66 wrote:Greeting Individual,

Your understanding appears to differe from mine, and what I understand teachers such as Bhikkhu Bodhi to be saying. See for example:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_24.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To the extent that a religion proposes sound ethical principles and can promote to some degree the development of wholesome qualities such as love, generosity, detachment and compassion, it will merit in this respect the approbation of Buddhists. These principles advocated by outside religious systems will also conduce to rebirth in the realms of bliss — the heavens and the divine abodes. Buddhism by no means claims to have unique access to these realms, but holds that the paths that lead to them have been articulated, with varying degrees of clarity, in many of the great spiritual traditions of humanity. While the Buddhist will disagree with the belief structures of other religions to the extent that they deviate from the Buddha's Dhamma, he will respect them to the extent that they enjoin virtues and standards of conduct that promote spiritual development and the harmonious integration of human beings with each other and with the world.
My opinion is that having the view that "other paths are not much good" is an impediment to progress.

Metta
Mike
That isn't my view. I agree with Bodhi.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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mikenz66
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by mikenz66 »

Individual wrote: That isn't my view. I agree with Bodhi.
:group:

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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Craig,
clw_uk wrote: I dont deny that some do develop those qualities, however there central teachings are rooted in desire, the promise of eternal life made by jesus to all who follow him, is just delight in self and exsistence, heaven and hell are just words and concepts, an expression of the conditioned mind, of samsara.
The view of "Jesus" and "Heaven" that you are basing your statements on seems to me to be on the level of understanding that many non-Buddhists have about Buddhism. For example, that Samsara and Nirvana are respectively places that we are trying to escape from and escape to.

Some Christians think like that. However, many do not. They do not view "Jesus" and "Heaven" as beings and places, respectively, but in terms of the qualities that they are seeking to develop. In fact, some have a view quite close to the Buddhist ideas of impermanence (expressed more as "unreliability") and not-self. I'm not just making this up :popcorn: I'm recalling the sermon I heard in my Mother's Anglican Church last Christmas morning. :group:

I do agree that there are large differences. And I think that the Dhamma is much more consistent and clear, and, in particular, has a better "instruction manual". However, I can not agree that Christianity, Islam, and so on, are merely unsophisticated folk religions.

Metta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by Ceisiwr »

The view of "Jesus" and "Heaven" that you are basing your statements on seems to me to be on the level of understanding that many non-Buddhists have about Buddhism. For example, that Samsara and Nirvana are respectively places that we are trying to escape from and escape to.
People think that nibbana is a place you go to because they dont understand the meaning of the word as used by the buddha, nibbana is also just a word and convention that comes from thought its just the only way to at least attempt to describe in some way what the unconditioned is like, since it means "to go out" it conveys some idea of what the realisation of Dhamma is

You could say the same for heaven and hell but the difference is they are conventions for describing that which will be conditioned. Heaven and hell are tied up with becoming, they are just concepts that come from the dualistic thinking that comes with conditionality i.e. me, you good, bad etc

With the Buddhadhamma you learn that me you, good bad, heaven hell are just concepts, that they come from samsara and are artifical constructs of a conditioned mind. In Abrahamic religions and most of the others this isnt so, the conventional of me you, good bad and heaven and hell is held to be reality so Dhamma is not known or penetrated to a deep level



I do agree that there are large differences. And I think that the Dhamma is much more consistent and clear, and, in particular, has a better "instruction manual". However, I can not agree that Christianity, Islam, and so on, are merely unsophisticated folk religions.
I never said they were, but you cant deny that they have a lot of ignorance in them,

permanent soul
Eternal heaven and hell
Salvation through another

They are mostly idealistic not realistic


Its not to say there wrong, they are correct on some level but only for samsara, there not connected with trying to fully understand Dhamma
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
green
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by green »

I wasn't a Buddhist, but after studying what Buddha taught in the Tipitika and doing an honest study of other religions, I became compelled to ask these questions honestly:

1)Can anyone say the Bible, the Gita or the Koran has something with as much clarity and understanding of development of the mind as the Noble Eightfold Path?

2)Does any other text have as much knowledge of heaven and hell, that I should listen to the almost elementary understanding of heaven and hell of these other faiths who threaten me with hell if I don't convert to their faith?


For me the answer became obvious...it was as if it's right in one's face.

Avijja itself is caused by not associating with "sapurisa" or truly good, honest people who can say, this is the highest truth, Learn it!

Buddhism is not blind faith, because if one were to be honest and without prejudice, one would see what is obvious.
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by nathan »

I will leave you all to simply speculate (please, please don't waste your time) how it is that I can have an absolute faith in the BuddhaDhamma and unswerving commitment to it while at the same time maintaining a personal relationship to Jesus Christ and an unabashed acknowledgement of God Almighty. I do.

For me, there is no 'problem' with faith in any of these regards. The Dhamma I practice, day in and day out, is focused on an exhaustive examination of the experience of being and becoming that I am having. If I take the simple principle 'all that arises also ceases' and I apply this to the present moment I certainly do see and know and realize and understand that it is true. I can see also that it is true not only in the present moment but across many varying time spans. In regards to all things in my experience, all that arises also ceases.

Examining in the moment I discover not only that this is so but I also discover why. Examining in this way I see not only cause and effect but causes and effects across time. There are consequences and therefore a moral and ethical dimension within each of those moments of my experience. This is, all of it, neither faith nor verification, this is investigation and discovery; this is seeing, this is knowing, this is realizing, and upon reflection it is understanding. It is in this way, by investigating and by discovering, that the suffering is revealed, that the desire is revealed, that the cessation of suffering is revealed and that the path of practice leading to the complete cessation of suffering is revealed.

There are eight steps on the path to liberation and there are many enlightenment qualities to be developed in keeping with this same simple practice of realizing. This work is not done via ignorance, this work is done by the discovery of ignorance and it's removal through realizations, many, many, many realizations. The truth is like climbing a mountain. I take the steps and every now and then I turn and look at the view from there. Then I go back to climbing towards the top. From the first step to the last in awareness of moving forward, there is no mystery involved in this.

We are the mystery. We are the creatures who exist in terms of the various forms of faith argued about time and again.

"I, me and mine", unarguably the greatest fallacy of all time, is the baseline faith we all come from, is our "common sense", is the creed or "faith" in which we all either are or were the "true believers". This "path to freedom" is walking a reasonable and straightforward path out of that "blind faith in myself", that ignorance, by means of an investigative process which is ongoing 'work' thereby discovering the "truth of myself" which is the ongoing reward. Every moment in which I take a step towards further waking up is one step closer to the very same full disclosure of the true nature of what I am; not only because it is not self but because it is whatever it is nonetheless, which owing to accepting the persisting ignorance has become a prison for only more of this being and becoming in 'faith'.

If there is an endemic need for faith which is blind it is not surprising at all because we have all been well and truly fully blind. We may begin with only hope but with only one step, with one moment of examination and discovery, this is enough of the actual path for that to no longer be the whole truth. There are parts of the path where turning back is possible and there are extents beyond which turning back is not possible. There is not even one moment of actual investigation and discovery which can not be said to lead to seeing, knowing, realizing and even eventually understanding something about something. That, for all of our ignorance, is our only hope of anything but ignorance.

Practicing well and understanding well leads to increased peace to increasing extents. Certainly well past the point that one is troubled about what other people call this peace. For the kind of absolute certainties that everyone only argues about as abstractions it is not enough to 'do' the eight steps. One must get them 'done'. ASAP

upekkha
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
green
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by green »

nathan wrote:I will leave you all to simply speculate (please, please don't waste your time) how it is that I can have an absolute faith in the BuddhaDhamma and unswerving commitment to it while at the same time maintaining a personal relationship to Jesus Christ and an unabashed acknowledgement of God Almighty. I do.

For me, there is no 'problem' with faith in any of these regards. The Dhamma I practice, day in and day out, is focused on an exhaustive examination of the experience of being and becoming that I am having. If I take the simple principle 'all that arises also ceases' and I apply this to the present moment I certainly do see and know and realize and understand that it is true. I can see also that it is true not only in the present moment but across many varying time spans. In regards to all things in my experience, all that arises also ceases.

Examining in the moment I discover not only that this is so but I also discover why. Examining in this way I see not only cause and effect but causes and effects across time. There are consequences and therefore a moral and ethical dimension within each of those moments of my experience. This is, all of it, neither faith nor verification, this is investigation and discovery; this is seeing, this is knowing, this is realizing, and upon reflection it is understanding. It is in this way, by investigating and by discovering, that the suffering is revealed, that the desire is revealed, that the cessation of suffering is revealed and that the path of practice leading to the complete cessation of suffering is revealed.

There are eight steps on the path to liberation and there are many enlightenment qualities to be developed in keeping with this same simple practice of realizing. This work is not done via ignorance, this work is done by the discovery of ignorance and it's removal through realizations, many, many, many realizations. The truth is like climbing a mountain. I take the steps and every now and then I turn and look at the view from there. Then I go back to climbing towards the top. From the first step to the last in awareness of moving forward, there is no mystery involved in this.

We are the mystery. We are the creatures who exist in terms of the various forms of faith argued about time and again.

"I, me and mine", unarguably the greatest fallacy of all time, is the baseline faith we all come from, is our "common sense", is the creed or "faith" in which we all either are or were the "true believers". This "path to freedom" is walking a reasonable and straightforward path out of that "blind faith in myself", that ignorance, by means of an investigative process which is ongoing 'work' thereby discovering the "truth of myself" which is the ongoing reward. Every moment in which I take a step towards further waking up is one step closer to the very same full disclosure of the true nature of what I am; not only because it is not self but because it is whatever it is nonetheless, which owing to accepting the persisting ignorance has become a prison for only more of this being and becoming in 'faith'.

If there is an endemic need for faith which is blind it is not surprising at all because we have all been well and truly fully blind. We may begin with only hope but with only one step, with one moment of examination and discovery, this is enough of the actual path for that to no longer be the whole truth. There are parts of the path where turning back is possible and there are extents beyond which turning back is not possible. There is not even one moment of actual investigation and discovery which can not be said to lead to seeing, knowing, realizing and even eventually understanding something about something. That, for all of our ignorance, is our only hope of anything but ignorance.

Practicing well and understanding well leads to increased peace to increasing extents. Certainly well past the point that one is troubled about what other people call this peace. For the kind of absolute certainties that everyone only argues about as abstractions it is not enough to 'do' the eight steps. One must get them 'done'. ASAP

upekkha
Nathan, thank you for your declaration of faith -- I find it refreshing. These days people like Ven. Ananda and Vakkali -- those with great faith- would be derided by many as being highly emotional and contrary to the dhamma.

It is, unfortuneatly, unpopular in many Buddhist circles to just let lose and declare one's absolute faith and love for Buddha (i.e. God for other faiths -- Buddha is known as the Brahma kaya, Dhamma kaya -- literally the body of God and the Law, and Raja abhi Raja or King of kings.) --

Buddhism is about getting rid of all our WRONG views about God and wrong views about just about every other thing and establishing that love with truth so that our faith becomes unshakeable.

Until then, in Buddhism faith is one of the most powerful strengths (bala) out of 5 strengths...so your faith (in Buddha dhamma and Jesus) is a strength not a weakness.

Of course with me I have a commitment to Buddha dhamma and a personal relationship to Buddha. For example, the Buddha anusati (recollection of Buddha) is as if having Buddha "face to face".



Here is the purest declaration of "bhakti" and faith from early Buddhism:

Buddhassaahasmi daaso (WOMEN: daasii)va, Buddho me saamikissaro.
I am the Buddha's servant, the Buddha is my sovereign master,

Buddho dukkhassa ghaataa ca, Vidhaataa ca hitassa me.
The Buddha is a destroyer of suffering & a provider of welfare for me.

Buddhassaaham niyyaademi, Sariirañjiivitañcidam.
To the Buddha I dedicate this body & this life of mine.

Vandanto'ham (Vandantii'ha.m) carissaami, Buddhasseva subodhitam.
I will fare with reverence for the Buddha's genuine Awakening.

N'atthi me saranam aññam, Buddho me saranam varam:
I have no other refuge, the Buddha is my foremost refuge:
:anjali:
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by kc2dpt »

I think debates on what Christians do or do not believe in, and discussions of whether other religions offer any value or not, are quite off topic for this very interesting thread on the nature of Buddhist faith. I'd like it if we could get back on topic.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
nathan
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by nathan »

green wrote:Nathan, thank you for your declaration of faith -- I find it refreshing. These days people like Ven. Ananda and Vakkali -- those with great faith- would be derided by many as being highly emotional and contrary to the dhamma.

It is, unfortuneatly, unpopular in many Buddhist circles to just let lose and declare one's absolute faith and love for Buddha (i.e. God for other faiths -- Buddha is known as the Brahma kaya, Dhamma kaya -- literally the body of God and the Law, and Raja abhi Raja or King of kings.) --

Im not in it for a popularity contest. My faith or my life is what I make it. I am open to correction.

Buddhism is about getting rid of all our WRONG views about God and wrong views about just about every other thing and establishing that love with truth so that our faith becomes unshakeable.

our WRONG views about God Not for getting rid of God. But you can take that up with God just like I did.

Until then, in Buddhism faith is one of the most powerful strengths (bala) out of 5 strengths...so your faith (in Buddha dhamma and Jesus) is a strength not a weakness.

Of course with me I have a commitment to Buddha dhamma and a personal relationship to Buddha. For example, the Buddha anusati (recollection of Buddha) is as if having Buddha "face to face".



Here is the purest declaration of "bhakti" and faith from early Buddhism:

Buddhassaahasmi daaso (WOMEN: daasii)va, Buddho me saamikissaro.
I am the Buddha's servant, the Buddha is my sovereign master,

Buddho dukkhassa ghaataa ca, Vidhaataa ca hitassa me.
The Buddha is a destroyer of suffering & a provider of welfare for me.

Buddhassaaham niyyaademi, Sariirañjiivitañcidam.
To the Buddha I dedicate this body & this life of mine.

Vandanto'ham (Vandantii'ha.m) carissaami, Buddhasseva subodhitam.
I will fare with reverence for the Buddha's genuine Awakening.

N'atthi me saranam aññam, Buddho me saranam varam:
I have no other refuge, the Buddha is my foremost refuge:
:anjali:
I've had all kinds of doubt. Lots and lots for long long times. Patient investigation and discovery leads to faith in seeing only the seen and knowing only the known. :anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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mikenz66
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by mikenz66 »

Peter wrote:I think debates on what Christians do or do not believe in, and discussions of whether other religions offer any value or not, are quite off topic for this very interesting thread on the nature of Buddhist faith. I'd like it if we could get back on topic.
You are probably correct. Yet the assertion that:
"The important things in Buddhism are directly verifiable so us Buddhists don't have to have faith, but everyone else does."
is periodically reborn.

Yet, proof of the existence of Nibbana (for a non-Ariya) has not been forthcoming...
:popcorn:

Not that it stops me practising... :meditate:

Metta
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Yet, proof of the existence of Nibbana (for a non-Ariya) has not been forthcoming...

Yes but you can see and understand aspects of what it means in this life, heaven and god etc are just speculation



Metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Why is Buddhist Faith not blind?

Post by mikenz66 »

clw_uk wrote:
Yet, proof of the existence of Nibbana (for a non-Ariya) has not been forthcoming...
Yes but you can see and understand aspects of what it means in this life, heaven and god etc are just speculation
Perhaps I'm a little dense. Which aspects of Nibbana should I be understanding?

And how do I know that I should trust the Buddha's teaching regarding Nibbana and not other teachings regarding devas, planes of existence etc?

Mike
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