Feeling and Feelings
We often discuss many thoughts and ideas. This is helps us all to better understand and there are many things to discuss about thought and ideas when we study the truth of the Dhamma. Still, thoughts and ideas are not the whole of being and one might even question if thought is even at the center of what we are as beings.
When we enter this world the predominant quality of experience is our feeling of it. It is through feeling being, living and life that we come to think as we do about ourselves and our lives. As time goes on we think further and thought begins to seem predominant in how we live and in what we are. But is this true or is it what we think is true or is it not actually so? Hard to say. But whatever else we might say. We continue to feel and we feel in many ways before we begin to form our thinking about what we feel.
I would like to discuss, what I feel is central to my understanding of being and living and that is that it is a felt process before it is much else.
Whatever we think is true and right, it is related to what we feel about ourselves and others and our world. Without this truth it would be impossible for us to test any other truth. It has been my experience that despite all that I might learn from thinking about the Dhamma, I am left to feel the truth of it in the feeling that I do in being and becoming in this world. This is how I come to understand, not only the deeper truths of the teaching but also the very immediate and direct truths of the eightfold path. It is in this way that the teaching is confirmed and reconfirmed in every moment. When one acts in accord with the Dhamma one feels the benefits and the wholesomeness of the teachings.
I thought I would share that to begin and then turn it over to everyone else so that we can together more closely examine the teachings in these ways. There is so much to be learned. There are excellent reasons to trust our feelings and there are also excellent reasons to discover when and why we are deceived by our feelings. For us to realize this well will teach us not only the wisdom of the Dhamma but the compassion and peace that is ours to be had in keeping with it as well.
I have put together a few references with which we can begin to look at the subject of feeling and I welcome everyone to share in any ways that they feel will help open our eyes to all that we can hope to learn about all of this.
In the end, it is not what I will think about the Dhamma that will mean the most to me. When all of my efforts to follow and discipline have someday brought me to a full and lasting sanctuary I will look to see how I feel about it. I feel that I will then think, feel and see that I finally feel all right.
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feeling
sacetana (adj.), vedanā (f.), anubhavana (nt.), anukampā (nt.), dayā (nt.), parāmasana (nt.), paṭisaṃvedī (nt.), phusana (nt.), saññā (nt.)
feelingly sānukampaṃ (adv.)
Feeling
Re: Feeling
The resources used here are:
Concise Pali-English Dictionary - A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/dict-pe/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
English to Pali dictionary
http://www.online-languages.info/_ud2/d ... sh&l2=pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Access to Insight.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
vedana [vedanaa]: Feeling — pleasure (ease), pain (stress), or neither pleasure nor pain.
vedanā : [f.] pain; sensation.
ve : [particle of affirmation] indeed; truly; surely.
dāna : [nt.] gift; charity; alms; alms-giving.
I'm far from sure it is the same dana, not even sure about the ve can anyone help work out the etymology of this word?
Here are some others that may or may not be related to vedana.
list edited out-n
Concise Pali-English Dictionary - A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/dict-pe/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
English to Pali dictionary
http://www.online-languages.info/_ud2/d ... sh&l2=pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Access to Insight.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
vedana [vedanaa]: Feeling — pleasure (ease), pain (stress), or neither pleasure nor pain.
vedanā : [f.] pain; sensation.
ve : [particle of affirmation] indeed; truly; surely.
dāna : [nt.] gift; charity; alms; alms-giving.
I'm far from sure it is the same dana, not even sure about the ve can anyone help work out the etymology of this word?
Here are some others that may or may not be related to vedana.
list edited out-n
Last edited by nathan on Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6494
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Re: Feeling
Hi Nathan,
Most Pali words are formed by taking verbal roots (dhātu), adding various prefixes and/or suffixes to them, and then making phonetic modifications according to rules specified in the classical grammars. Consequently, the final forms of several words derived from the same verbal root may be very dissimilar. For example, akkhara ('letter') and nakkhatta ('star'), despite their dissimilar appearance, are both derived from the verbal root khar, "to end, spoil, or become empty."
Conversely, several words that look very similar may be derived from entirely different verbal roots. For example, quite a few of the words in the list you posted have no connection with vedanā at all.
So, trying to identify words related to vedanā by searching Pali dictionaries for similar-looking words is not the proper procedure. (It's actually the sort of pseudo-scholarship that one gets from people like Jhanananda and Shakya Aryanatta). Rather, one must begin by finding what the word's root is (this will often be given in the PTS Pali-English Dictionary) and then looking up the root in a dictionary of verbal roots such as the Saddanīti Dhātumālā or the Dhātuppadīpikā.
In the case of vedanā the root is vid. Some related words from the Dhātuppadīpikā's entry for vid:
vidati, vedo, vidū, vedī, vijjā, vedeti, vedayati, vindati, govindo, vitti, vedikā, nibbindati, nibbindaṃ, nibbiṇṇo, vittaṃ, vijjati, saṃvijjati, vedayitaṃ, vedayamāno, paṭivedeti, paṭivedayati.
On a final note, it should be remarked that the fact that two Pali words are derived from the same root doesn't necessarily mean that either of them will shed any semantic light on the other, for their meanings will in many cases have nothing to do with each other (as we saw with the words akkhara and nakkhatta).
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Vedanā has no connection at all with the words ve and dāna.nathan wrote:vedana [vedanaa]: Feeling — pleasure (ease), pain (stress), or neither pleasure nor pain.
vedanā : [f.] pain; sensation.
ve : [particle of affirmation] indeed; truly; surely.
dāna : [nt.] gift; charity; alms; alms-giving.
I'm far from sure it is the same dana, not even sure about the ve can anyone help work out the etymology of this word?
Most Pali words are formed by taking verbal roots (dhātu), adding various prefixes and/or suffixes to them, and then making phonetic modifications according to rules specified in the classical grammars. Consequently, the final forms of several words derived from the same verbal root may be very dissimilar. For example, akkhara ('letter') and nakkhatta ('star'), despite their dissimilar appearance, are both derived from the verbal root khar, "to end, spoil, or become empty."
Conversely, several words that look very similar may be derived from entirely different verbal roots. For example, quite a few of the words in the list you posted have no connection with vedanā at all.
So, trying to identify words related to vedanā by searching Pali dictionaries for similar-looking words is not the proper procedure. (It's actually the sort of pseudo-scholarship that one gets from people like Jhanananda and Shakya Aryanatta). Rather, one must begin by finding what the word's root is (this will often be given in the PTS Pali-English Dictionary) and then looking up the root in a dictionary of verbal roots such as the Saddanīti Dhātumālā or the Dhātuppadīpikā.
In the case of vedanā the root is vid. Some related words from the Dhātuppadīpikā's entry for vid:
vidati, vedo, vidū, vedī, vijjā, vedeti, vedayati, vindati, govindo, vitti, vedikā, nibbindati, nibbindaṃ, nibbiṇṇo, vittaṃ, vijjati, saṃvijjati, vedayitaṃ, vedayamāno, paṭivedeti, paṭivedayati.
On a final note, it should be remarked that the fact that two Pali words are derived from the same root doesn't necessarily mean that either of them will shed any semantic light on the other, for their meanings will in many cases have nothing to do with each other (as we saw with the words akkhara and nakkhatta).
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
-
- Posts: 1970
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am
Re: Feeling
I'm not certain all these terms are the same. Vedana is also translated as "feeling," but it needs to be appropriately qualified as, "feeling of pleasure, pain, and neither pleasure nor pain". It doesn't strictly correspond to the English term, which is closer to sankhara (mental formations), vinnana (consciousness), or cittas (objects of consciousness), along with the word "emotion".nathan wrote: feeling
sacetana (adj.), vedanā (f.), anubhavana (nt.), anukampā (nt.), dayā (nt.), parāmasana (nt.), paṭisaṃvedī (nt.), phusana (nt.), saññā (nt.)
feelingly sānukampaṃ (adv.)
Re: Feeling
Thank you Venerable Dhammanando. Thank you Individual. That is all very helpful. Can either of you or could anyone kindly explain what we would be speaking about when we speak of feelings in the many ways in which we commonly do in english? What are the correct pali words or terms and the best available accompanying english definitions for feeling as sensations and emotions?
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6494
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Feeling
Hi Nathan,
I think that everything that we term an 'emotion' in English would be encompassed by the saṅkhārakkhandha or the 50 cetasikas (i.e. the 52 cetasikas minus vedanā and saññā). Though I should add that not all of these cetasikas would be called emotions.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
'Sensation' is a reasonable translation of vedanā.nathan wrote:Can either of you or could anyone kindly explain what we would be speaking about when we speak of feelings in the many ways in which we commonly do in english? What are the correct pali words or terms and the best available accompanying english definitions for feeling as sensations and emotions?
I think that everything that we term an 'emotion' in English would be encompassed by the saṅkhārakkhandha or the 50 cetasikas (i.e. the 52 cetasikas minus vedanā and saññā). Though I should add that not all of these cetasikas would be called emotions.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Feeling
Would any or all of this be objects of themeless concentration or related to themeless release?Dhammanando wrote:Hi Nathan,
'Sensation' is a reasonable translation of vedanā.
I think that everything that we term an 'emotion' in English would be encompassed by the saṅkhārakkhandha or the 50 cetasikas (i.e. the 52 cetasikas minus vedanā and saññā). Though I should add that not all of these cetasikas would be called emotions.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Thank you Venerable Dhammanando.
metta and upekkha -two of the best wishes I feel
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Re: Feeling
Hi Nathan
I agree with Ajahn that what we commonly call 'feelings' or emotions are in fact complex combinations of mental and psycho-somatic phenomena manifesting. I don't have Ajahn's encyclopaedic knowledge of the Dhamma and Pali, but my own view is conditioned by my experience of taking vedana (sensation) as my primary object since my involvement in the Dhamma began.
Metta
Ben
I agree with Ajahn that what we commonly call 'feelings' or emotions are in fact complex combinations of mental and psycho-somatic phenomena manifesting. I don't have Ajahn's encyclopaedic knowledge of the Dhamma and Pali, but my own view is conditioned by my experience of taking vedana (sensation) as my primary object since my involvement in the Dhamma began.
Metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Feeling
Thanks Ben. What I would like to ask Ven. Dhammanando really is the relationship of all parts of the above to:Ben wrote:Hi Nathan
I agree with Ajahn that what we commonly call 'feelings' or emotions are in fact complex combinations of mental and psycho-somatic phenomena manifesting. I don't have Ajahn's encyclopaedic knowledge of the Dhamma and Pali, but my own view is conditioned by my experience of taking vedana (sensation) as my primary object since my involvement in the Dhamma began.
Metta
Ben
I hope that puts my real question in a better perspective. Given the above as a complete description of perception of sensation and emotional/mental response.srivijaya wrote:In the Godatta Sutta SN 41.7 Buddha outlines different kinds of awareness release.
These are the immeasurable awareness-release, the nothingness awareness-release, the emptiness awareness-release and the themeless awareness-release.
He subsequently explains which factors their cultivation rests upon - briefly:
1. Immeasurable = An expansive all-pervading awareness of compassion and good will.
2. Nothingness = The monk enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness.
3. Emptiness = The monk considers this: 'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.'
4. Themeless = A monk, not attending to any theme enters & remains in the themeless concentration of awareness.
Each of these are, however, declared secondary to a release called an "unprovokable awareness-release".
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Re: Feeling
My apologies Nathan
I did see your subsequent question relating to the different awareness releases. I didn't attempt an answer because i am not so familiar with Ven. Thanissaro's terminology and I didn't want to cloud the issue by providing a transcript of Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to the SN - which you probably already have. I too will await Ajahn's response with interest.
Metta
Ben
I did see your subsequent question relating to the different awareness releases. I didn't attempt an answer because i am not so familiar with Ven. Thanissaro's terminology and I didn't want to cloud the issue by providing a transcript of Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to the SN - which you probably already have. I too will await Ajahn's response with interest.
Metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Feeling
No problem at all, I joyfully appreciate all the input. It's all contributing to clarifying the roles which awareness, perception, sensation and emotion or these mental qualities or conditions play in practice for wisdom and release. I'm really appreciating the participation of everyone.Ben wrote:My apologies Nathan
I did see your subsequent question relating to the different awareness releases. I didn't attempt an answer because i am not so familiar with Ven. Thanissaro's terminology and I didn't want to cloud the issue by providing a transcript of Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to the SN - which you probably already have. I too will await Ajahn's response with interest.
Metta
Ben
metta and upekkha
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6494
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Feeling
Hi Nathan,
The deliverance of mind by nothingness (ākiñcaññā cetovimutti) has the sphere of nothingness as its object.
The deliverances of mind by emptiness (suññatā cetovimutti) and signlessness (animittā cetovimutti) have Nibbāna as their object.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
The four immeasurable deliverances of mind (appamāṇā cetovimutti) have living beings as their object.nathan wrote: Would any or all of this be objects of themeless concentration
The deliverance of mind by nothingness (ākiñcaññā cetovimutti) has the sphere of nothingness as its object.
The deliverances of mind by emptiness (suññatā cetovimutti) and signlessness (animittā cetovimutti) have Nibbāna as their object.
Quite a number of the cetasikas will be present at the moment of animitta-cetovimutti. Which ones in particular will depend on which of the five rūpajjhānas is present at the time of the arising of the supramundane consciousness.or related to themeless release?
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Feeling
Thank you Venerable Dhammanando. I would appreciate some added clarification. How does the development of insight wisdom relate to these forms of awareness release as well as to the unprovoked awareness release? How do these kinds of awareness release connect to vedana and to the results of scrutinizing vedana via the progress of insight?
Is this the same kind of 'awareness of a living being as object'?
Vedana in Paticcasamuppada
http://www.vri.dhamma.org/research/90sem/vedana15.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Is this the same kind of 'awareness of a living being as object'?
Vedana in Paticcasamuppada
http://www.vri.dhamma.org/research/90sem/vedana15.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6494
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Feeling
Hi Nathan,
Weak insight knowledge (taruṇa-vipassanā-ñāṇa) may arise from the scrutinizing of vedanā that is successful in discerning its specific characteristic and then its common characteristics (anicca, dukkha and anattā). This provides the foundation for the subsequent development of strong insight knowledge, culminating in one or another of the supramundane releases.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Appamāṇā cetovimutti and ākiñcanā cetovimutti have no essential relationship with insight development but the former may be used as the basis for it. Animittā cetovimutti, suññatā cetovimutti and akuppā cetovimutti are the culmination of insight development.nathan wrote:Thank you Venerable Dhammanando. I would appreciate some added clarification. How does the development of insight wisdom relate to these forms of awareness release as well as to the unprovoked awareness release?
At the moment of release sukha or upekkhā vedanā will be one of the accompanying mental factors.How do these kinds of awareness release connect to vedana and to the results of scrutinizing vedana via the progress of insight?
Weak insight knowledge (taruṇa-vipassanā-ñāṇa) may arise from the scrutinizing of vedanā that is successful in discerning its specific characteristic and then its common characteristics (anicca, dukkha and anattā). This provides the foundation for the subsequent development of strong insight knowledge, culminating in one or another of the supramundane releases.
No. Vipassanā knowledge, even at the lowest level, has dhammas as its object.Is this the same kind of 'awareness of a living being as object'?
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Feeling
Excellent. Thank you Ven. Dhammanando. This makes the relationships very clear.
metta and upekkha
This sutta has a a structure which I really like.
MN 44 Culavedalla Sutta The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One."
Saying, "Yes, lady," Visakha the lay follower delighted & rejoiced in what Dhammadinna the nun had said. Then he asked her a further question: "'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"
"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
"'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"
"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
metta and upekkha
This sutta has a a structure which I really like.
MN 44 Culavedalla Sutta The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One."
Saying, "Yes, lady," Visakha the lay follower delighted & rejoiced in what Dhammadinna the nun had said. Then he asked her a further question: "'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"
"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
"'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"
"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}