DFFA Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote: And How do you know (unless you've had extraordinary, supramundane insights) that 4NT are true?
Do you know if the Four Noble Truths are true?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: And How do you know (unless you've had extraordinary, supramundane insights) that 4NT are true?
Do you know if the Four Noble Truths are true?
I'd rather not answer that personal question. Please keep the discussion impersonal.
Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by Ceisiwr »

If He didn't really live, and if He wasn't someone extraordinary, and considering dozens of spiritual traditions - then why follow His teachings at all? If one doesn't accept certain things because one knows better (that which I don't believe, is all hagiography!), then why study Buddha's teaching at all?
I have confirmed confidence (not blind faith). The four noble truths made logical sense to me and answered some deep questions. I then began to practice and steadily I can see the truth of them more and more. I follow the Dhamma because it leads to less dukkha in my life. All this without a bit of worry if the guy actually lived or not and without worrying if his "powers" are real or if he magically killed himself or not

And How do you know (unless you've had extraordinary, supramundane insights) that 4NT are true? Maybe it was sour-grapes ramblings of someone living in 5th Century BC, India in deep poverty and talking about how desire and material goods are bad...
Right View is a continual development until it leads to complete understanding. Its not black and white, not knowing then bang you suddenly know. The Buddha taught a gradual path, a gradual awakening. As I said above, when I first read them they struck me so I began to practice and since then I have had steady (sometimes slow) insights into them, which has lead to less dukkha


Think about it. If the four noble truths had to be taken on faith alone and they weren't centered around a gradual understanding, then we wouldnt know that there is Dukkha. We would just believe there is, yet we all know there is dukkha
I hope that you see where skepticism, and undue importance given to ones own views & experiences, can lead.
Not really skepticism Its just not important if he did live or not. Sure it would be a nice add on as it makes a good story but thats all really.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: And How do you know (unless you've had extraordinary, supramundane insights) that 4NT are true?
Do you know if the Four Noble Truths are true?
I'd rather not answer that personal question. Please keep the discussion impersonal.

Why is it ok for you to ask others but not for them to ask you?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: And How do you know (unless you've had extraordinary, supramundane insights) that 4NT are true?
Do you know if the Four Noble Truths are true?
I'd rather not answer that personal question. Please keep the discussion impersonal.
The question follows from your statement. And how do you know if I or Craig haven't had extraordinary insights? But the nice things about the ehipassiko-akāliko Dhamma is that in studying the Four Noble Truths and putting the Buddha's teachings into practice we can start to see the truth of the Buddha's and see the effects of practicing the Buddha's teachings right away. It is what the Buddha taught and I have no reason to doubt him based upon my own experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by Individual »

You all are way off-topic. Let's get back to the nature of the Buddha's death and how it might be related to "suicide and euthanasia according to Theravada," and not get into silly debates over who really has discernment, over who has the correct faith, that is well-placed and based on reason & observation rather than blindness. I think we can all agree on the meaning of faith and it's really irrelevant here. :)

Each can put a Buddha behind his view and we can only judge eachother on our own relative terms, in terms of our own perceptions. Otherwise, there is no real communication going on here.
Alex123 wrote:
Individual wrote:You said that sometimes old people relinquish the will to live -- without necessarily asking for death, without necessarily telling anyone. Do you see this as being the same or different from the behavior of the Jonestown suicide cult?
What Jonestown suicide cult was wrong. But I really don't think that it is appropriate to compare it to the Buddha. No one can be compared to the Buddha, and while the Buddha was awakened - they weren't.
If what the Jonesdown suicide cult did was wrong,
And what they did is called suicide,
And it is inappropriate to compare to the Buddha...

then logically, is it not therefore inappropriate to say the Buddha "commit suicide"? :)
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Re: Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by Vepacitta »

:goodpost:

Right on Individual.



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tiltbillings
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Re: DFFA Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Given the contentious nature of the notion that the Buddha committed suicide, this topic has been separated out from this thread: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6087" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The Buddha's supposed suicide and what it might mean can be discussed here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: DFFA Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by Sanghamitta »

Alex123 there are at least two logical fallacies in your position.
The first is the False Dilemma Fallacy. You are positing a solution to a non problem.
The second is the Negative Proof Fallacy. You are assuming that the Buddha had an intention which parallels a modern concept of suicide. And that in the absence of any proof that he held that intention you are assuming that absence as proof that he did.
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Re: Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by appicchato »

I can't believe I'm weighing in on this...
The Buddha has relinquished his will to live...
What's wrong with that?...
...this would be called suicide today.
You might call it suicide, although that doesn't mean everyone else looks at it the same way...
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Re: Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by Individual »

Sanghamitta wrote:Alex123 there are at least two logical fallacies in your position.
The first is the False Dilemma Fallacy. You are positing a solution to a non problem.
The second is the Negative Proof Fallacy. You are assuming that the Buddha had an intention which parallels a modern concept of suicide. And that in the absence of any proof that he held that intention you are assuming that absence as proof that he did.
:|
appicchato wrote:I can't believe I'm weighing in on this...
The Buddha has relinquished his will to live...
What's wrong with that?...
...this would be called suicide today.
You might call it suicide, although that doesn't mean everyone else looks at it the same way...
:goodpost:
The best things in life aren't things.

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Alex123
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Re: DFFA Suicide and Euthanasia according to Theravada

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Tilt, all,

lets imagine this scenario. An arahant is walking barefoot and sees broken glass in front of him. Would he continue walking in that direction and cut his feet, or would he walk around that place? What would you do?

When it comes to the Buddha, he may have compared continuing existence of 5 aggregates, vs reaching Parinibbana. Obviously there was no comparison, parinibbana is much better than remaining in the old body that is getting sick.
At that time the Lord was living hemmed in by bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, by male and female lay followers, by kings and royal ministers, by sectarian teachers and their disciples, and he lived in discomfort and not at ease. Then the Lord thought: "At present I am living hemmed in by bhikkhus and bhikkhunis... by sectarian teachers and their disciples, and I live in discomfort and not at ease. Suppose I were to live alone, secluded from the crowd?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So an Arahant can be living in discomfort (bad company that perhaps asks too many questions and annoys Him)!

There is also a sutta somewhere where the Buddha asked Ananda to teach the gathered people, while the Buddha would lie down and rest his sore back. So the Buddha was NOT invulnerable to physical pain, and neither was he invulnerable to discomfort of being hemmed in by bhikkhus and bhikkhunis.


So there is nothing strange in desire to end physical pain by relinquishing vitality/life formations as He did in DN16.



In Ud8.9 we have another wonderful story. An Arahant came to the Buddha, told him that basically "Now is the time for my total Unbinding, O One-Well-Gone!" used superpowers to levitate into the air and with superpowers cremated himself. This was not a natural death, in modern terms, for all intents and purposes it would be called suicide. People do not naturally die by levitating into the air, and cremating themselves.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Now is the time for my total Unbinding, O One-Well-Gone!"

"Then do, Dabba, what you think it is now time to do."

Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta, rising from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One and, circling him on the right, rose up into the air and sat cross-legged in the sky, in space. Entering the fire property and emerging from it, he was totally unbound. Now, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered the fire property and then emerged from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned. Just as when ghee or oil is burned and consumed, neither ashes nor soot can be discerned, in the same way, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered the fire property and then emerged from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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