Manasikara in sweeping

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:15 pm

Hi Retro,

Perhaps it would be helpful if you explained what exactly you are trying to achieve. If the aim is to develop the ability to see intentions then, having thought about it and done some experimentation over the past few days, I wouldn't find looking for intention in the focussing of attention a particularly effective way of doing that.

I'm also skeptical whether getting deliberately tangled up with the process is a useful way to proceed. I think that whatever method you are using to develop attention (Goenka, Mahansi, etc) the volition involved with the method will eventually become somewhat apparent naturally. But if you go into it with the idea of seeing the intentions then I think that there is a risk of simply getting entangled in thinking about the process, rather than developing the ability to see the subtleties that emerge naturally given time.

Sorry that this is a bit vague. I don't find this stuff easy to either do or explain...

:anjali:
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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:44 pm

I would agree Mike. I think also that it is very hard to convey one part or dimension of what is a process that follows on in quite a natural way when one follows the formal teaching.
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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby Freawaru » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:15 pm

There is an easy way to "locate" intention so one can observe it. Hold your breath - literally. After the breath out. Sooner or later the impulse to breath in again arises and when you keep holding the breath this impulse to breath in will become stronger and stronger until one cannot NOT note it. At one moment then there arises the very strong impulse "now!" and the breath in happens.
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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby Freawaru » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:18 pm

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby Freawaru » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:22 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:To what is lit by the flashlight Retro. Manasikara is not the flashlight..consciousness is the flashlight. Manasikara is either the dance or the computer programme, depending on the analogy of your choice , which results from the volitional activity of applying the flashlight.


I think the "flashlight" is called mindfulness (sati) or maybe sati-sampajanna (not sure about the difference). Consciousness is part of the dance/program.
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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:06 pm

Hmmm..... yes that sounds right..English just wasn't made for this stuff was it ?
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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:09 pm

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps it would be helpful if you explained what exactly you are trying to achieve. If the aim is to develop the ability to see intentions then, having thought about it and done some experimentation over the past few days, I wouldn't find looking for intention in the focussing of attention a particularly effective way of doing that.

It was more a general question to see whether people did it or not, and if so, how... though it appears people do not, and that's fine.

If there was something specific, it was that (when not seeing clearly) I don't regard vedana or feelings as self, but do think of cetana or will as "I". Therefore, the anatta and anicca characteristics of vedana are neither here nor there since I do not regard them as "me" or "I" (only mine), but penetrating the anatta and anicca characteristics of that which I do falsely take as self (i.e. cetana) would be useful in terms of destroying the illusion of self.

Without being careful with sweeping techniques, it seems it would be all to easy to regard the activity of sweeping as something "I" am doing, even if one can correctly see that vedana exposed through the sweeping process is anatta and anicca. Therefore, even seeing vedana as anatta and anicca, one might still regard them as "mine" and thereby do nothing to dispel the illusion of self.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby Ben » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:13 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Without being careful with sweeping techniques, it seems it would be all to easy to regard the activity of sweeping as something "I" am doing, even if one can correctly see that vedana exposed through the sweeping process is anatta and anicca. Therefore, even seeing vedana as anatta and anicca, one might still regard them as "mine" and thereby do nothing to dispel the illusion of self.

Perhaps. But my experience, after doing it for some time, I don't think its a problem. Certainly not for me and for other long-standing practitioners that I've spoken with.
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

Sayagyi U Ba Khin


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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:14 am

Retro,

We use watching intention during walking meditation (before lifting, before moving, before keeping) so that we can slow down the movements and watch it in our own time. We watch the intention as cause and movement as effect, for a prolong period of time.

When the practitioner becomes skilled in watching intention in walking meditation then we ask them to watch it (in a cause and effect manner) in other movements as well.

Then we ask them to see all events, objects arising as causes and effects on a macroscopic level.

We also ask them to watch stimuli from the sense bases arising in a cause and effect manner.

By the end the practitioner is seeing cause and effect links in his entire environment, quite naturally.

Then we ask the practitioner to see the cause of the intention (watching the intention as effect). Then the person comes to realize that there is no self, as intention is causally arisen and automatic.

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:44 am

retrofuturist wrote:Without being careful with sweeping techniques, it seems it would be all to easy to regard the activity of sweeping as something "I" am doing, even if one can correctly see that vedana exposed through the sweeping process is anatta and anicca. Therefore, even seeing vedana as anatta and anicca, one might still regard them as "mine" and thereby do nothing to dispel the illusion of self.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I think you are over-thinking this. . . . even seeing vedana as anatta and anicca, one might still regard them as "mine" and thereby do nothing to dispel the illusion of self. One might, but as mindful and concentration become established that increasingly ceases to be a problem. It is not just vedana, but anything one experiences that can get caught being regarded as "mine" in some way or other.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:55 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:One might, but as mindful and concentration become established that increasingly ceases to be a problem. It is not just vedana, but anything one experiences that can get caught being regarded as "mine" in some way or other.

Well of course, that's satipatthana. "'A monk discerns... Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'"

I really just wanted to know whether the intentional act of sweeping, which falls within the domain of the five aggregates, is discerned with regards to its origination and disappearance in the practice of "sweeping"... and whilst people have been quick to say I'm over-thinking it, people are also giving me what seem to be quite different answers to that very question, making it far less of an irrelevant question than might be inferred.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:10 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:One might, but as mindful and concentration become established that increasingly ceases to be a problem. It is not just vedana, but anything one experiences that can get caught being regarded as "mine" in some way or other.

Well of course, that's satipatthana. "'A monk discerns... Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'"

I really just wanted to know whether the intentional act of sweeping, which falls within the domain of the five aggregates, is discerned with regards to its origination and disappearance in the practice of "sweeping"... and whilst people have been quick to say I'm over-thinking it, people are also giving me what seem to be quite different answers to that very question, making it far less of an irrelevant question than might be inferred.
Can be, like the intentional act of noting or the intentional act of lifting, moving, placing of one's foot will doing walking practice, but as the mindfulness and concentration becomes steadier, stronger, establish (or whatever way one wants to talk about it), it is not a problem for the simple reason one can easily attend to it, or one can bracket it (setting it aside, as it were) while attending to the main area of awareness. I do not know what Goenka people do as they go further along the path, but eventually one can gets to the point of just sitting with the initial intention to just sit, mindfully watching whatever comes into awareness. Intentions that arise at that level become rather interesting in their origins, in the movement of the mind.

But, again, it may not be a satisfactory answer, but once there is a taste of really clear, grounded mindfulness a lot of these question fall aside.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby Ben » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:52 am

tiltbillings wrote:I do not know what Goenka people do as they go further along the path, but eventually one can gets to the point of just sitting with the initial intention to just sit, mindfully watching whatever comes into awareness.

Sorry Tilt, i thought i addressed this: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5980&start=20#p93660 or perhaps alluded to it...

tiltbillings wrote:Intentions that arise at that level become rather interesting in their origins, in the movement of the mind.

Indeed

tiltbillings wrote:but once there is a taste of really clear, grounded mindfulness a lot of these question fall aside.
Agree
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

Sayagyi U Ba Khin


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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:59 pm

It is going to be very difficult to get rid of the avijja around a particular mental component without actually abserving how it arises and falls away quite directly and without seeing it's causes and effects. The Buddha recommended satipattana-not one but 4, with around 20 different objects to focus on just because of this problem. Otherwise he in his infinite wisdom could have given just one meditation to suit them all. In my experience most people easily break throught to anatta by seeing causes and effects. Just watch the causes of intention- then you begin to see it is automatic, conditioned by previous causes. The way people break through to this is in line with the vipassana nanas:
Nama rupa paricceda nana first
paccaya pariggaha nana second (causes and effects)
sammassana nana third (where the yogi sees tilakkana including anatta)

Upto this point the meditation can be a bit analytical ie using yonisomanasikara, appropriate attention. This is also reflected in the fact that YM is the 3rd step of the factors of stream entry, followed by 'practice according to the dhamma': satipattana. You find the Buddha explaining his way upto this point with some monks, like in the anatta lakkana sutta. But the rest has to be developed through vipassana/mindfulness (develop viraga,nirodha etc)

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:34 pm

Ben wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

Thanks for sharing the above quotes.

Further to the explanation above about why this interests me, I think it's because when I falsely identify "myself", I associate it in terms of volition or will... and manisikara is a subtle aspect of will or volition.

Therefore, for me at least, the ti-lakkhana aspects of volition are arguably more worth penetrating than the ti-lakkhana aspects of the feeling or body aggregates.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Paul I've never had any problem with attending to volition with vedananupassana. Observing vedana is an excellent training ground which trains the mind in observing increasingly more subtle phenomena. Initially when one practices vedananupassana, one's attention is focused on the grosser forms of sensation, but through time and continuity of practice, one develops sensitivity - not only towards finer sensation, but also to other co-arising phenomena. As one's equanimity develops and matures, one increasingly observes the evanescing flora without identifying with it.
kind regards

Ben
Sorry, I missed this earlier. Thanks for pointing it out to me.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby Sanghamitta » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:02 am

It did in fact rather wrap the whole thing up nicely ...thank you Ben.
:anjali:
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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:29 pm

Freawaru wrote:There is an easy way to "locate" intention so one can observe it. Hold your breath - literally. After the breath out. Sooner or later the impulse to breath in again arises and when you keep holding the breath this impulse to breath in will become stronger and stronger until one cannot NOT note it. At one moment then there arises the very strong impulse "now!" and the breath in happens.


Brilliant!

Thank you!
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