Being Mindful of Mind States

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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christopher:::
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Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by christopher::: »

I've listened to this dharma talk by Ajahn Sucitto a couple of times over the last year and have found the insights to be very helpful. The concept of "mind states" is both in line with the dharma and modern western psychology. It's a useful way to think about how the aggregates arise interdependently as clusters of feeling/perception, imo.

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Ben
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by Ben »

Hi Christopher,
Welcome back, its been a while!
Thanks for the link. If you're interested in cittanupassana, I also recommend Ven Analayo's 'Satipatthana' as it covers it in his work.
kind regards

Ben
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christopher:::
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by christopher::: »

Hi Ben. Thanks so much.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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mikenz66
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by mikenz66 »

Funny thing about that talk was when Ajahn said something to the effect that: "You don't get dukkha from your ears" (picking some supposedly innocuous body part). In fact, often when I meditate in the morning, after a shower, my ears itch like hell as the water dries out...

I did a three-day retreat a couple of years ago with Ajhan Tiradhammo
http://dhammatalks.org.uk/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=67" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
who encouraged us to work though the mindfulness sections through the retreat, so first day we concentrated on the body, second on feelings, third on mind states (he then joked we'd have to come on a longer retreat to do dhammas...). This was actually really useful, first day got us grounded with walking and breathing, second we were encouraged to look for the feelings generated by the body, so I was seeing how some body parts were warm some were cold, and the cold bits were unpleasant (we was walking outside and it rained a bit...). On the third day I could start to see how the feelings were affecting my mind-state, and I managed to catch one time when my mood changed as I turned around at the end of the walking path. I suddenly went from happy to sad (or vice-versa...). Which sounds pretty lame when you write it down, but I generally find that catching a change in mind state is quite hard, and I also find that one or two slightly insightful moments per weekend is all I get...

:anjali:
Mike
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christopher:::
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by christopher::: »

mikenz66 wrote:Funny thing about that talk was when Ajahn said something to the effect that: "You don't get dukkha from your ears" (picking some supposedly innocuous body part). In fact, often when I meditate in the morning, after a shower, my ears itch like hell as the water dries out...

I did a three-day retreat a couple of years ago with Ajhan Tiradhammo
http://dhammatalks.org.uk/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=67" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
who encouraged us to work though the mindfulness sections through the retreat, so first day we concentrated on the body, second on feelings, third on mind states (he then joked we'd have to come on a longer retreat to do dhammas...). This was actually really useful, first day got us grounded with walking and breathing, second we were encouraged to look for the feelings generated by the body, so I was seeing how some body parts were warm some were cold, and the cold bits were unpleasant (we was walking outside and it rained a bit...). On the third day I could start to see how the feelings were affecting my mind-state, and I managed to catch one time when my mood changed as I turned around at the end of the walking path. I suddenly went from happy to sad (or vice-versa...). Which sounds pretty lame when you write it down, but I generally find that catching a change in mind state is quite hard, and I also find that one or two slightly insightful moments per weekend is all I get...

:anjali:
Mike
Thanks for the link, Mike, and that example. When you say "catching a change in mind state is quite hard" do you mean that observing it is difficult, or observing and then not falling into the new mind state, seeing it for what it is (an impermanent mindstate) so that it passes as quickly as it came... or something different?

I find i'm aware of my mindstates quite often, just that "awareness" differs in the attachment, immersion, etc. Numerous times during the day i'm totally lost in the spin of the arisings, though often i see emotions/preferences for what they are - yet have no control. What is rarer is to see a mindstate or emotion arise and have some insight and no identification with it, staying calm and detached, not acting on it.

In those cases the state will frequently dissipate and there is a sense of greater freedom. Like- "Ah, this dharma practice is working"...

:tongue:

Is your experience similar?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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mikenz66
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Christopher,

I mean that I find catching the change in mindstate is difficult. For me it's easy enough to realise "I'm angry", or "I'm calm" but so easy to see the point at which it changes.

Whereas seeing a change in bodily feeling, or thoughts coming and going, is much easier.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by christopher::: »

Okay, thanks. How about identification, how these are observed? For example observing "I am angry" is different from "An angry mindstate has arisen" right?

These thoughts reflect differing levels of insight, no? At least it seems that way for .... errr........ "me"

:juggling:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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mikenz66
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Christopher,

I think you're reading too much into my description. I wasn't trying to make such distinctions in my brief note! If I were doing mediation I'd note "anger" rather than "I'm angry", etc...

:anjali:
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by Sanghamitta »

christopher::: wrote:Okay, thanks. How about identification, how these are observed? For example observing "I am angry" is different from "An angry mindstate has arisen" right?

These thoughts reflect differing levels of insight, no? At least it seems that way for .... errr........ "me"

:juggling:
The inverted commas are not strictly necessary. The Theravada sees you or me as real ...or at least, as real as any other" compounded thing ". We arise from certain sets of conditions and cease when those conditions cease. While the conditions are present the convention that we exist is as good as any assumption.

Just so, anger arises...hearing arises...attraction arises...aversion arises. We note and return.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

mikenz66 wrote:I mean that I find catching the change in mindstate is difficult. For me it's easy enough to realise "I'm angry", or "I'm calm" but so easy to see the point at which it changes.
I think mind states are more general than this, eg a cloudy or distracted mind - as opposed to the arising of particular thoughts and feelings.

Spiny
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by christopher::: »

What i've noticed is how sometimes the sense of "I" is stronger, sometimes mind identifies with emotions as being me or mine, other times when calm and detached they are seen as just passing patterns of belief, emotion, meaning, memory, etc...
Spiny O'Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I mean that I find catching the change in mindstate is difficult. For me it's easy enough to realise "I'm angry", or "I'm calm" but so easy to see the point at which it changes.
I think mind states are more general than this, eg a cloudy or distracted mind - as opposed to the arising of particular thoughts and feelings.

Spiny
Actually, mind states are very specific in structure, shifting constantly, at least according to the scientific evidence on brain activity. We can see actual pictures of these various configurations now, thanks to modern imaging technologies. Each state of mind we experience has a corresponding pattern in the brain, something Buddha noticed thru careful observation 2,500 years ago, science has now confirmed.

Image

reading hearing thinking speaking
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by Sanghamitta »

We have in this thread the term" mind states" being used in two different ways. This in part is a result of a western construct of mind being imposed onto a Buddhist model. What is shown in the illustration is not " mind states" but brain functionings that occur as a result of cognition or perception etc. These are not pictures of "the mind" they are images of synaptic activity in response to certain stimuli. Now its arguable that this exctly what the " mind" is....but that is an entirely different topic.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by christopher::: »

Hi Sanghamitta

Well, this is the "Theravada for the modern world" forum, so.... it might be interesting to discuss? I would not say that these photos show what the mind "is" but they do (imo) correspond with what we each notice when carefully observing various patterns of cognition and emotion, attention changing within us.

The shifting images of the movie Casablanca on your TV is just light patterns changing. They correspond to Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman's actual movements over 60 years but what is on our screen is not the actors.

To say the movie in my living room is "just" light patterns is not a complete explanation, to say they are real people is not complete either. What these MRI images "really" are and what mind really is may be unanswerable.

But they correspond directly to how Ajahn Succito is speaking about "mind states" in the dhamma talk linked in the OP, in my opinion.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by Sanghamitta »

They are not light patterns. They are clusters of firing dendrites , electrical activity which is then translated into coloured light patterns by the use of technology for ease of observation.These are no more pictures of " mind" than an ECG is a picture of "love". They are happening in various parts of the brain which have evolved for the purpose. If those parts of the brain suffer trauma other parts of the brain can be trained to take up that activity.There is no ghost in the machine.
This is indeed interesting, but has no direct bearing on mind states as defined by the Buddha in the Pali canon...he certainly did not suggest that one becomes aware of specific physiological brain activities. He was using mind states in an entirely different way. More to do with mind set and awareness of mind set. And the way that mind set influences physiological activity. To understand the Buddhas model of "mind" it is necessary to have recourse to the kandha model.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Christopher,

I (and others here) assumed that when you said "mind states" you meant the third satipatthana:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... th%C4%81na" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3: He further clearly perceives and understands any state of consciousness or mind cittānupassanā: whether it is greedy or not, hateful or not, confused or not, cramped or distracted, developed or undeveloped, surpassable or unsurpassable, concentrated or unconcentrated, liberated or unliberated.
See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A rough, but useful, alternative translation would be "mood". It's because "mood" tends to last for quite a while (minutes, hours, days...) that I said that it is difficult to catch it changing. Whereas thoughts, memories, etc, as you say, float past, and are clearly changing. (Those would, I think, belong in the fourth satipattahana.)

So, picking up on the "I" thing, one can be seeing thoughts, memories, pains, etc, rising and falling rapidly, but the "calm and concentrated meditator" mindstate can last a long time and therefore be identified with.

:anjali:
Mike
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