Snp 5.4 Mettagu-manava-puccha: Mettagu's Questions

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Snp 5.4 Mettagu-manava-puccha: Mettagu's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:23 am

Snp 5.4 PTS: Sn 1049-1060
Mettagu-manava-puccha: Mettagu's Questions

translated from the Pali by John D. Ireland
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html

[The Venerable Mettagu:]
"I ask the Lord this question, may he tell me the answer to it. I know him to be a master of knowledge and a perfected being. From whence have arisen these many sufferings evident in the world?"

[The Lord:]
"You have asked me the source of suffering. Mettagu, I will tell it to you as it has been discerned by me. These many sufferings evident in the world have arisen from worldly attachments. Whoever ignorantly creates an attachment, that stupid person comes upon suffering again and again. Therefore a man of understanding should not create attachment, seeing it is the source of suffering."

[Mettagu:]
"What I did ask you have explained, now I ask another question. Come tell me this: how do the wise cross the flood, birth and old age, sorrow and grief? Explain it thoroughly to me, O sage, for this Dhamma has been understood[1] by you."

The Lord: "I will set forth the Dhamma, Mettagu, a teaching to be directly perceived,[2] not something based on hearsay, by experiencing which and living mindfully one may pass beyond the entanglements of the world."

Mettagu: "I rejoice in the thought of that highest Dhamma, great sage, by experiencing which and living mindfully one may pass beyond the entanglements of the world."

[The Lord:]
"Whatever you clearly comprehend, Mettagu, above, below, across and in between, get rid of delight in it. Rid yourself of habitual attitudes[3] and (life affirming) consciousness.[4] Do not continue in existence. Living thus, mindful and vigilant, a bhikkhu who has forsaken selfish attachments may, by understanding, abandon suffering, birth and old age, sorrow and grief, even here in this life."

[Mettagu:]
"I rejoice in the words of the great sage. Well explained, O Gotama, is the state of non-attachment.[5] The Lord has surely abandoned suffering as this Dhamma has been realized by him. They will certainly abandon suffering who are constantly admonished by you, O Sage. Having understood, I venerate it, Noble One. May the Lord constantly admonish me also."

[The Lord:]
"Whom you know as a true brahmana, a master of knowledge, owning nothing, not attached to sensual (-realm) existence, he has certainly crossed this flood. Having crossed beyond he is untainted and freed from doubt. One who has discarded this clinging (leading) to renewal of existence is a man who has realized the highest knowledge. Free from craving, undistressed, desireless, he has crossed beyond birth and old age, I say."

Notes

1. The Pali word "vidito" also means, found out, discovered.

2. Ditthe dhamme: to be seen for oneself in this life or here and now. It is an expression used of Nibbana.

3. Or, "fixed views."

4. Or, "kamma-producing consciousness."

5. I.e., Nibbana.
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Re: Snp 5.4 Mettagu-manava-puccha: Mettagu's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:25 am

Snp 5.4 PTS: Sn 1049-1060
Mettagu-manava-puccha: Mettagu's Questions

translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Mettagu:]
I ask you, O Blessed One. Please tell me.
I regard you as knowledgeable,
with your self developed.
From what have the many forms of stress & suffering arisen in the world?

[The Buddha:]
If you ask me the coming-into-being of stress & suffering,
I will tell it to you as one who discerns.
From acquisition [1] as cause
the many forms of stress & suffering come into being in the world.
Whoever, unknowing, makes acquisitions
— the fool — comes to stress & suffering again & again.
So one who's discerning, focused on the birth of stress & suffering,
their coming-into-being, should make no acquisitions.

[Mettagu:]
What we asked, you've expounded.
Now we ask something else.
Please tell us.
How do the prudent cross over the flood of birth & aging, lamentation & sorrow?
Please, sage, declare this to me as this Dhamma has been known by you.

[The Buddha:]
I will teach you the Dhamma — in the here & now,
not quoted words — knowing which, living mindfully,
you'll cross over beyond entanglement in the world.

[Mettagu:]
And I relish, Great Seer, that Dhamma supreme,
knowing which, living mindfully,
I'll cross over beyond entanglement in the world.

[The Buddha:]
Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between:[2]
dispelling any delight, any laying claim to those things,
consciousness should not take a stance in becoming.
The monk who dwells thus
— mindful, heedful — letting go of his sense of mine, knowing right here
would abandon birth & aging, lamentation & sorrow, stress & suffering.

[Mettagu:]
I relish, Gotama, the Great Seer's words well-expounded, without acquisition,
for yes, O Blessed One, you've abandoned stress & suffering as this Dhamma has been known by you.
And they, too, would abandon stress & suffering those whom you, sage, would admonish unceasingly.
Having met you, I bow down to you, Great One.
Perhaps you will admonish me unceasingly.

[The Buddha:]
Whoever you recognize as a knowledgeable brahman,
possessing nothing, unentangled in sensuality & becoming yes,
he has crossed over the flood.
Having crossed to the far shore, he is without harshness or doubt.
And any one who has realized,
who is knowledgeable here,
having unentangled the bond to becoming and non-, [3]
free of craving, untroubled, undesiring
— he, I tell you, has crossed over birth & aging.


Notes

1. The term "acquisition" (upadhi), in its everyday sense, denotes the possessions, baggage, and other paraphernalia that a nomadic family might carry around with it in its wanderings. On the psychological level, it denotes anything for which one might have a sense of "I" or "mine" and which, consequently, one would carry around as a kind of mental baggage.

2. Nd.II gives six different valid interpretations for "above, below, across, in between":
* above = the future; below = the past; across and in between = the present
* above = the deva world; below = hell; across and in between = the human world
* above = skillfulness; below = unskillfulness; across and in between = indeterminate mental qualities
* above = the property of formlessness; below = the property of sensuality; across and in between = the property of form
* above = feelings of pleasure; below = feelings of pain; across and in between = feelings of neither pleasure nor pain
* above = the body from the feet on up; below = the body from the crown of the head on down; across and in between = the middle of the body

3. Becoming and non-becoming (or dis-becoming) are the two most subtle objects of craving that lead on to continued existence — and suffering — in the round of birth & death.
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Re: Snp 5.4 Mettagu-manava-puccha: Mettagu's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:43 am

4: Mettagåmàõavapucchà The Young Man Mettagå's Questions
Anandajoti Bhikkhu

http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... avaggo.pdf
Listen at: http://www.archive.org/details/The-Way-to-the-Beyond

"I ask you, Gracious One, please tell this to me, said venerable Mettagå,
I think you have true understanding, and a developed self -
how have these countless kinds of suffering
arisen for whoever is in the world?"

"You asked me about the origin of suffering, Mettagå said the Gracious One,
as I know it I will declare it to you:
Because of clinging to a basis [1] countless kinds
of suffering originate for whoever is in the world.

The foolish one, without wisdom, clings to a basis,
and comes to suffering again and again, the fool.
Therefore knowing this, do not cling to a basis,
seeing the birth and origin of suffering."

"You have proclaimed to us what we asked you about, said venerable Mettagå,
another thing we ask, come on, please answer it:
How do the wise ones cross over the flood
of birth, old age, grief, and lamentation?
Please explain this to me, O sage,
for this Teaching has been understood by you."

"I shall proclaim the Teaching to you, Mettagå said the Gracious One,
which is not hearsay in this world,
which, having understood, and living mindfully, one can cross over clinging to the world."

"I greatly rejoice in that supreme Teaching, great seer,
which, having understood, and living mindfully, one can cross over clinging to the world."

"Whatever you know, Mettagå said the Gracious One,
above, below, and across the middle,
dispel the enjoyment of, and settling on, these things,
and consciousness, [2] and one will not remain in existence.

Living in this way, mindful, and heedful,
the monk who lives on after giving up loved things,
can, being wise, give up birth, old age,
grief, lamentation, and suffering right here."

"I greatly rejoice in this, the Great Seer's word, said venerable Mettagå,
O Gotama, well proclaimed is freedom from clinging.
Surely the Gracious One gave up suffering,
for this Teaching has been understood by you.

Surely they too can give up suffering,
whomever you would continually advise, O Sage,
therefore having met the Strong One, I revere him,
perhaps the Gracious One could continuously advise me!"

"You should know the brahmin who has true understanding, Mettagå, said the Gracious One,
who has nothing, and is not clinging to sense existence,
for he has surely crossed over the flood,
without hindrance or doubt, he has crossed beyond.

That man here who is wise, and has true understanding,
who has released the shackle of repeated existence,
he is craving-free, not troubled, not yearning -
he has crossed over birth and old age, I say."

NOTES
[1] Clinging to a basis translates the one word upadhi in the Pali, which carries both the meaning of clinging, and forming a basis for the very same clinging.

[2] It means the type of consciousness that is still engaged in result-producing actions (kamma).
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Re: Snp 5.4 Mettagu-manava-puccha: Mettagu's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:45 am

5. Mettagumānavapucchā
Questions of the young man Mettagu.

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... gga-e.html


1049. Venerable Mettagu said:
"Thinking the Blessed One is perfectly developed, I ask.
How does unpleasantness arise in the world for varied matter. "

1050. The Blessed One said:
"Mettagu asks how unpleasantness arises, I will tell as I know.
On account of endearments arise unpleasantness in the world of varied matter.

1051. He who makes endearments unknowingly, comes to unpleasantness again and again...
Therefore the wise do not make endearments, seeing it as the birth and development of unpleasantness. "

1052. Venerabe Mettagu said:
"All our questions were answered, we have something more to ask,
How do the wise cross the flood of birth,decay,grief and lament,
May it be told as the Blessed One experienced. "

1053. The Blessed One said:
"I honour that Teaching which is here and now, and not hearsay,
Those who abide mindfully knowing the Teaching
Overcome the attachments to the world"

1054. Venerabe Mettagu said:
"I too take pleasure in the sage's noble Teaching
Knowing which if one abides, would overcome the attachments to the world"

1055. The Blessed Oe said:
"Dispel interests and settlements in whatever you know,
Above, below, across or even in the middle and do not think of them.

1056. The bhikkhu who abides mindful and diligent to give up selfish clingings,
Overcomes birth, decay,grief and lament and knowing ends unpleasantness here and now".

1057 Venerable Mettagu said:
"I delight in the words of the great sage, Gotama without substratum for being, is perfected
That the Blessed One knows this Teaching, shows he has dispelled unplasantness

1058. If it was not for your essential advice, I would not have dispelled unpleasantness
Great Man I worship you for giving the profitable advice"

1059. The Blessed One said:
"If a perfected brahmin is completely detached from sensual thoughts
He indeed has crossed the floods,pulled out the arrow and is free of doubts

1060. He is a man perfected knowing, giving up attachments 'to be' and ṅot to be'
Free of greed, unconfused, and desireless, I say he has crossed birth and decay"
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Re: Snp 5.4 Mettagu-manava-puccha: Mettagu's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:02 am

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... 1d%C4%81na
Upādāna: 'clinging', according to Vis.M XVII, is an intensified degree of craving tanhā. The 4 kinds of clinging are: sense-clinging kāmupādāna, clinging to views ditthupādāna clinging to mere rules and ritual sīlabbatupādāna, clinging to the personality-belief atta-vādupādāna.

1;What now is the sense-clinging? Whatever with regard to sense-objects there exists of sense-lust, sense-desire, sense-attachment, sense-passion, sense-confusedness, sense-mental chains: this is called sense-clinging.

2 ''What is the clinging to views? 'Food and offerings are useless; there is no fruit and result for good and bad deeds: all such view and wrong conceptions are called the clinging to views.

3;What is the clinging to mere rules and ritual? The holding firmly to the view that through mere rules and ritual one may reach purification: this is called the clinging to mere rules and ritual.

4;What is the clinging to the personality-belief? The 20 kinds of ego-views with regard to the groups of existence see: sakkāya-ditthi these are called the clinging to the personality-belief; Dhs. 1214-17.

This traditional fourfold division of clinging is not quite satisfactory. Besides kamupādāna we should expect either rūpupādāna and arūpupādāna or simply bhavupādāna Though the Anāgāmī is entirely free from the traditional 4 kinds of upādāna he is not freed from rebirth, as he still possesses bhavupādāna The Com. to Vis.M XVII, in trying to get out of this dilemma, explains kāmupādāna as including here all the remaining kinds of clinging.

Clinging' is the common rendering for u., though 'grasping' would come closer to the literal meaning of it, which is 'uptake'; see: Three Cardinal Discourses WHEEL 17, p.19.
    Page 15 of http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh017.pdf
    8. CLINGING: an unsatisfactory and inadequate, but accepted rendering for the Pali upādāna. The word means literally “taking up” (upa plus ādāna; compare the Latin assumere from ad plus sumere.) By first metaphor it means a fire’s fuel, i.e., what a fire takes upon itself and consumes. By second metaphor it is used for the assumption and consumption that satisfies craving and produces existence. As such it is the condition sine qua non for being. What is consumed (or assumed) is the categories (q.v.). The word “clinging” has to represent this meaning. Clinging’s ending is Nibbāna.
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Re: Snp 5.4 Mettagu-manava-puccha: Mettagu's Questions

Postby Ben » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:46 pm

Hi Mike

"Whatever you know, Mettagå said the Gracious One,
above, below, and across the middle,
dispel the enjoyment of, and settling on, these things,
and consciousness, [2] and one will not remain in existence.


It is reminiscent of something I found in Vism (DO) chapter "to abide in enjoyment is to abide in sankharas". I thought that was quite a profound, yet difficult, teaching.
kind regards

Ben
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