Materialism and Buddhism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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kirk5a
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by kirk5a »

Sanghamitta wrote:Awareness is an process that arises when the conditions for its arising are present.
How do you know that?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Sanghamitta
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by Sanghamitta »

Perhaps Kirk5a you could cite Theravadin Buddhist sources that suggest that awareness arises independantly ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
5heaps
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by 5heaps »

andrer9999 wrote:
5heaps wrote:
Laurens wrote:Material things are all we can be certain of existing. To posit the existence of anything else requires assumptions to be made.
you should really think about that over and over. its an amazing thing to say.

as noam chomsky puts it, "what mind-body problem? we already got rid of the mechanical view of the body" (something very close to that). then he goes on to speak about how noone has the slightest clue what the mind is, or even how to phrase a question that would lead to some understanding of the mind. contrast that to your "The most logical explanation is that they are functions of the brain."
Would you mind expounding further on the former point? Also, do you know the actual quote or where I can read more about what Chomsky said?
Newton's discoveries of planetary motion etc broke the cartesian mind-body problem. this is because it was no longer clear what was meant by body, because matter suddenly was governed by "occult forces" (not matter). then he goes on to talk about how this increased staggeringly through the advancement into modern physics which makes all available data on what what it means to be matter quite meaningless.


ill look for the audio for this since i have some clue where it might be + its really important.
at one point he is analyzing a particular "river" and what it means to be a river. its very Dharmakirti/Nagarjuna-ish (ie. if we change 20% of the molecules is it the same river.. how bout 21% of the molecules is it still the river.. if you change the direction of the flow is it still the river? they did that in russia, and it was still the same river. etc)
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
5heaps
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by 5heaps »

Laurens wrote:To posit something existing that is not a material process, yet interacts with matter, requires the following assumptions to be made:
you never actually studied buddhism so its no wonder you dont have a clue what youre talking about. buddhism doesnt assert that we should stick on heads in the sand. it asserts direct perception and it defends it with logic, texts, debate, instructions on how produce the same results, etc.
as yet undiscovered natural cause than to assume the supernatural.
what exactly is supernatural about nonphysicality? is a number physical? is a letter physical? youre reading a word and staring at it (not the pixels), is that "supernatural"?
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
5heaps
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by 5heaps »

Sanghamitta wrote:The real problem lies within the views of spiritism contrasted with those of Buddha Dhamma.
Buddha asserted persons which function, which collect karma, are born and die, etc. not appearances of persons and appearances of suffering people. likewise, the 4 arya truths are not appearances of truths and appearances of being applicable to your life, they do apply to your life. likewise you are alive, there is not the appearance of being alive. i hate to be the one to tell you but _your_ actions produce effects, not appearances of effects; just like physical things produce effects, not appearances of effects. materialism is so nihilistic that pretty soon there will be a substantial school of though which says even physical things only appear to function.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Laurens wrote:Time and time again we discover natural processes behind things that at first may seem miraculous. In light of what we know, there is no reason whatsoever to assume miracles or supernatural any more. It's better to assume that something has an as yet undiscovered natural cause than to assume the supernatural.
Good point. And our biological perception is actually quite limited, gradually we have begun to discover all sorts of other things going on as scientific equipment has developed.

Spiny
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by Sanghamitta »

5heaps wrote:
Sanghamitta wrote:The real problem lies within the views of spiritism contrasted with those of Buddha Dhamma.
Buddha asserted persons which function, which collect karma, are born and die, etc. not appearances of persons and appearances of suffering people. likewise, the 4 arya truths are not appearances of truths and appearances of being applicable to your life, they do apply to your life. likewise you are alive, there is not the appearance of being alive. i hate to be the one to tell you but _your_ actions produce effects, not appearances of effects; just like physical things produce effects, not appearances of effects. materialism is so nihilistic that pretty soon there will be a substantial school of though which says even physical things only appear to function.

Another string of non sequiturs which address none of the points I made. But instead substitute a series of retorts to points I did not.
But as I am not a debate hobbyist, lets leave it there.

:anjali:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
alan
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by alan »

I am a debate hobbyist!
I love to debate. Especially about really important things, with people who care.
But you know what? Some people are just not worth talking to. Like those who put together a string of non sequiturs which do not address any reasonable points.
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by Sanghamitta »

I am not saying that no one should be a debate hobbyist Alan...there are far worse things to be ... :smile:
I am just saying that I am not one. I think on the whole that is a male interest...( ducks )

:anjali:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by Lazy_eye »

Re: materialism, I've seen the term used in a variety of ways. It isn't always reductive -- i.e. doesn't necessarily mean that all meaningful experience should be seen as nothing more than a collection of material processes. That's a rather hardcore view, actually, though it gets used often as a straw man in arguments.

It can simply mean that all experience has a material component, and that if you take the material component away, the experience disappears too.

It's a little like the distinction between the "content" and "technical" aspect of the internet. For the purposes of having a discussion, Dhammawheel is not simply a technical process. But if the technical process stops working, no discussions can take place.
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by Sanghamitta »

I suspect that you are correct and that materialism is often read as advocating a position that says that only the measurable exists....the root of maya means to measure btw.
However in some discussions it is used a corrective to the idea which seems to be prevalent in some Mahayana circles and possibly beyond that we are talking of a docetic Buddhist inspired by a docetic Buddha in a docetic Universe.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Hanzze
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by Sanghamitta »

That's we what call a joke Hanzze..
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Hanzze
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Materialism and Buddhism

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Laurens: Just that reality works as it is without anything supernatural. I would be open to changing my view if some evidence was presented that indicated there was something beyond this material reality. Until then there isn't much reason to believe it.
So when Buddha teaches devas or pours forth fire & water from his body or talks about invisible realms or demons or asuras, that is not sufficient "reason" for you to believe him, even provisionally?
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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