SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

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SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:44 am

SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases {S iii 61; CDB i 897}

The Buddha explains how one becomes an arahant through mastery of the seven-fold skill of analyzing the five aggregates.

translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

    Translator's note: The term "seven bases" here can also mean the seven notes of the musical scale; and it is possible that the phrase "three modes of investigation" may also be borrowed from musical theory: it may refer to three ways of testing a musical scale once it has been tuned. Thus in this discourse the Buddha may be borrowing terms commonly used to describe a consummate musician and applying them to his description of a consummate meditator.

    The Commentary, for its part, singles out this discourse as being one that entices a serious meditator to practice.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!"

"Yes, lord," the monks replied to the Blessed One.

The Blessed One said: "Monks, a monk who is skilled in seven bases and has three modes of investigation is fulfilled & fully accomplished in this doctrine & discipline — the ultimate person.

"And how is a monk skilled in seven bases? There is the case where a monk discerns form, the origination of form, the cessation of form, the path of practice leading to the cessation of form. He discerns the allure of form, the drawback of form, and the escape from form.

"He discerns feeling... He discerns perception... He discerns fabrications...

"He discerns consciousness, the origination of consciousness, the cessation of consciousness, the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness. He discerns the allure of consciousness, the drawback of consciousness, and the escape from consciousness.

"And what is form? The four great existents [the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property] and the form derived from them: this is called form. From the origination of nutriment comes the origination of form. From the cessation of nutriment comes the cessation of form. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of form, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on form: that is the allure of form. The fact that form is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of form. The subduing of desire & passion for form, the abandoning of desire & passion for form: that is the escape from form.

"For any priests or contemplatives who by directly knowing form in this way, directly knowing the origination of form in this way, directly knowing the cessation of form in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of form in this way, directly knowing the allure of form in this way, directly knowing the drawback of form in this way, directly knowing the escape from form in this way, are practicing for disenchantment — dispassion — cessation with regard to form, they are practicing rightly. Those who are practicing rightly are firmly based in this doctrine & discipline. And any priests or contemplatives who by directly knowing form in this way, directly knowing the origination of form in this way, directly knowing the cessation of form in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of form in this way, directly knowing the allure of form in this way, directly knowing the drawback of form in this way, directly knowing the escape from form in this way, are — from disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, lack of clinging/sustenance with regard to form — released, they are well-released. Those who are well-released are fully accomplished. And with those who are fully accomplished, there is no cycle for the sake of describing them.

"And what is feeling? These six bodies of feeling — feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of intellect-contact: this is called feeling. From the origination of contact comes the origination of feeling. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of feeling... The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on feeling: that is the allure of feeling. The fact that feeling is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of feeling. The subduing of desire & passion for feeling, the abandoning of desire & passion for feeling: that is the escape from feeling...

"And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception... The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on perception: that is the allure of perception. The fact that perception is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of perception. The subduing of desire & passion for perception, the abandoning of desire & passion for perception: that is the escape from perception...

"And what are fabrications? These six classes of intention — intention with regard to form, intention with regard to sound, intention with regard to smell, intention with regard to taste, intention with regard to tactile sensation, intention with regard to ideas: these are called fabrications. From the origination of contact comes the origination of fabrications. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of fabrications. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of fabrications... The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on fabrications: that is the allure of fabrications. The fact that fabrications are inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of fabrications. The subduing of desire & passion for fabrications, the abandoning of desire & passion for fabrications: that is the escape from fabrications...

"And what is consciousness? These six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness. From the origination of name-&-form comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on consciousness: that is the allure of consciousness. The fact that consciousness is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of consciousness. The subduing of desire & passion for consciousness, the abandoning of desire & passion for consciousness: that is the escape from consciousness.

"For any priests or contemplatives who by directly knowing consciousness in this way, directly knowing the origination of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the cessation of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the allure of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the drawback of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the escape from consciousness in this way, are practicing for disenchantment — dispassion — cessation with regard to consciousness, they are practicing rightly. Those who are practicing rightly are firmly based in this doctrine & discipline. And any priests or contemplatives who by directly knowing consciousness in this way, directly knowing the origination of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the cessation of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the allure of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the drawback of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the escape from consciousness in this way, are — from disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, lack of clinging/sustenance with regard to consciousness — released, they are well-released. Those who are well-released are fully accomplished. And with those who are fully accomplished, there is no cycle for the sake of describing them.

"This is how a monk is skilled in seven bases.

"And how does a monk have three modes of investigation? There is the case where a monk investigates in terms of properties, investigates in terms of sense spheres, investigates in terms of dependent co-arising. This is how a monk has three modes of investigation.

"A monk who is skilled in seven bases and has three modes of investigation is fulfilled and fully accomplished in this doctrine & discipline — the ultimate person."

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:57 am

SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta - The Seven Points

Translated by Bhikkhu Ñanananda


At Saavatthi... Then the Exalted One said:

"A monk who is skilled in the seven points, monks, who is an investigator in three ways, is called 'accomplished' [52] in this Norm and Discipline, one who has reached mastership, superman.

"And how, monks, is a monk skilled in the seven points?

"Herein, monks, a monk fully understands form, the arising of form, the ceasing of form, and the path leading to the ceasing of form. He fully understands the satisfaction there is in form, the misery that is in form, the escape from form.

"He fully understands feeling...

"He fully understands perception...

"He fully understands formations...

"He fully understands consciousness, the arising of consciousness, the ceasing of consciousness, and the path leading to the ceasing of consciousness. He fully understands the satisfaction there is in consciousness, the misery that is in consciousness, the escape from consciousness.

"And what, monks, is form? It is the four great elements, and that form which is dependent on the four great elements. From the arising of nutriment comes the arising of form: from the ceasing of nutriment is the ceasing of form: and the path leading to the ceasing of form is this Noble Eightfold Path, to wit: Right Views, Right Thoughts, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration.

"That pleasure, that happiness, which arises because of form, that is the satisfaction that is in form. In so far as form is impermanent, is fraught with suffering and is liable to change, that is the misery that is in form. That restraint, of desire and lust, that putting away of desire and lust which are in form, that is the escape from form.

"Whatsoever recluses and brahmans, monks, by thus fully understanding form, its arising, its ceasing and the path leading to its ceasing, by thus fully understanding the satisfaction that is in form, the misery that is in form, and escape from form, are treading towards the disgust for, the detachment from and the cessation of, form, they are rightly treading. They that are rightly treading, are firm grounded in this Norm and Discipline.

"And whatever recluses or brahmans, monks, by thus fully understanding form, its arising, its ceasing, and the path leading to its ceasing, by thus fully understanding the satisfaction, the misery and the escape from form, are liberated without grasping, due to their disgust for, detachment from and cessation of form — they are truly liberated. They that are truly liberated, are 'accomplished,' and to them that are 'accomplished' there is no whirling round for purposes of designation.[53]

"And what, monks, is feeling?

"Monks, there are these six classes of feeling, to wit: feeling that is born of contact with eye, feeling that is born of contact with ear... nose... tongue... body... mind. This, monks, is called feeling. From the arising of contact comes the arising of feeling; from the ceasing of contact is the ceasing of feeling; and the path leading to the ceasing of feeling is this Noble Eightfold Path, to wit: Right Views... Right Concentration.

"That pleasure, that happiness, which arises because of feeling — that is the satisfaction that is in feeling. In so far as feeling is impermanent, fraught with suffering, and liable to change, this is the misery that is in feeling. That restraint of desire and lust, that putting away of desire and lust which are in feeling, that is the escape from feeling.

"Now whatsoever recluses or brahmans, monks, by thus fully understanding feeling, its arising, its ceasing, and the path leading to its ceasing; by thus fully understanding the satisfaction, the misery, that is in feeling and the escape from feeling, are treading towards the disgust for, the detachment from and the cessation of, feeling, they are rightly treading. They that are rightly treading, are firm grounded in this Norm and Discipline.

"And whatsoever recluses and brahmans, monks, by thus fully understanding feeling... are liberated without grasping, due to their disgust for, detachment from, and cessation of, feeling — they are truly liberated. They that are truly liberated, are 'accomplished,' and for them that are 'accomplished,' there is no whirling round for purposes of designation.

"And what, monks, is perception?

"Monks, there are these six classes of perception, perception of form, perception of sound, of smell, taste, tangibles and ideas; that, monks, is called perception. From the arising of contact, comes the arising of perception; from the ceasing of contact, is the ceasing of perception; and the path leading to the ceasing of perception is this Noble Eightfold Path, to wit: Right Views... Right Concentration... [as above]... there is no whirling round for purposes of designation.

"And what, monks, are the formations?

"Monks, there are these six classes of intentions. The intention of forms, the intention of sounds, of smells, of tastes, of tangibles and of ideas. These, monks, are called formations. From the arising of contact, comes the arising of formations; from the ceasing of contact, is the ceasing of formations; and the path leading to the ceasing of formations is this Noble Eightfold Path, to wit: Right views... Right Concentration... [as above]... there is no whirling round for purposes of designation.

"And what, monks, is consciousness?

"Monks, there are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness. From the arising of 'name-and-form' comes the arising of consciousness; from the ceasing of name-and-form, is the ceasing of consciousness; and the path leading to the ceasing of consciousness is this Noble Eightfold Path, to wit: Right Views... Right Concentration.

"That pleasure, that happiness which arises because of consciousness — that is the satisfaction which is in consciousness. In so far as consciousness is impermanent, fraught with suffering, and liable to change, this is the misery that is in consciousness. That restraint of desire and lust, that putting away of desire and lust which are in consciousness, that is the escape from consciousness.

"Now whatsoever recluses or brahmans, monks, by thus fully understanding consciousness, its arising, its ceasing, and the path leading to its ceasing; by thus fully understanding the satisfaction, the misery, that is in consciousness and the escape from consciousness, are treading towards the disgust for, the detachment from and the cessation of consciousness, they are rightly treading. They that are rightly treading, are firm grounded in this Norm and Discipline.

"And whatsoever recluses and brahmans, monks, by thus fully understanding consciousness, its arising, its ceasing, and the path leading to its ceasing, by thus fully understanding the satisfaction, the misery and the escape from consciousness are liberated without grasping, due to their disgust for, detachment from, and cessation of consciousness — they are truly liberated. They that are truly liberated, are 'accomplished,' and to them that are 'accomplished,' there is no whirling round for purposes of designation.

"In this way, monks, is a monk skilled in the seven points.

"And how, monks, is a monk an investigator of the three ways?

"As to that, monks, a monk investigates things by way of the elements,[54] by way of sense-spheres,[55] by way of Dependent Arising[56].

"That is how, monks, a monk becomes an investigator of the three ways.

"A monk who is skilled in the seven points, monks, who is an investigator of the three ways — he is called 'accomplished' in this Norm and Discipline, one who has reached mastership, superman."


Notes:

[52] 'Kevalii' is 'one who lives by oneself — a-lone.' The sense of completeness, of being fully integrated and accomplished, is also implicit. The primary sense seems to emerge for instance at Sn. v. 490: 'Those who wander in the world unattached, possessionless, alone, and self-controlled' ('ye ve asattaa vicaranti loke — aki.ncanaa kevalino yatattaa'). This 'being alone,' however, has a deeper significance for the arahant, even as his being possessionless (See above, Note 14 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanananda/wheel183.html#fn-14). It refers to the arahant's non-entanglement in name-and-form. (See above, Note 13 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanananda/wheel183.html#fn-13). He has put an end to name-and-form ('pariyanta.m akaasi naamaruupa.m' — Sn. v. 537) and it is no longer reflected or manifest in his consciousness. At S. III 105 [SN 22.83 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.083.than.html] it is said that the notion 'I-am' occurs when one reflects upon the five aggregates, just as in the case of one looking at his own image reflected in a mirror or in a bowl of water. Thus the very conceit 'I-am' (asmimaana), being a form of measuring, is essentially dependent and relative. Paradoxically enough, it reveals a split in living experience, since all identification presupposes a duality. The arahant who is free from that conceit does not rely on standards of judgment (See eg. Sn. vv. 842, 894 [Sn 4.9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.09.than.html, Sn 4.12 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.12.than.html]), and is therefore truly alone, fully integrated and accomplished. His is a completeness born of inner concord due to the fact that his consciousness does not 'dwell' anywhere. 'They say it is a concord* for a monk who, completely withdrawn from the world resorts to a secluded spot, in that he does not show himself in existence:'
Patiliinacarassa bhikkhuno bhajamaanassa vivittamaasana.m saamaggiyamaahu tassa ta.m yo attaana.m bhavane na dassaye

— Sn. v. 810.

[Sn 4.6 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.06.than.html]

*The word 'saamaggiyam,' though explained by the Comm. (Sn. A.) to mean 'fit and proper' ('patiruupa.m'), seems to have a significance of its own, as suggested by the context. (Note: 'They say it is a 'saamaggiya' for him...') It connotes the inner concord of the fully-integrated arahant, its primary sense being 'concord' or 'unanimity,' in a social context.


[53] 'ye kevalino va.t.tam tesa.m natthi pa~n~napanaaya: (See above, Note 51 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanananda/wheel183.html#fn-51). The 'whirling-round' is no more for the arahants since the counterpart of consciousness — 'name-and-form' — is no longer 'present.' This too is suggestive of the solitude meant by the term 'kevali.'

[54] The eighteen elements are: eye, visual object, eye-consciousness; ear, sound, ear-consciousness; nose, odor, nose-consciousness; tongue, taste, tongue-consciousness; body, tangibles, body-consciousness; mind, ideas, mind-consciousness.

[55] The twelve spheres of sense: eye, visual object; ear, sound; nose, odor; tongue, taste; body, tangible object; mind, idea. These are usually divided into two groups as 'inner' (ajjhattika) and 'outer' (baahira), the former comprising the six senses, and the latter, their respective objects.

[56] This refers to the 'contemplation of the rise-and-fall' (udayabbayaanupassanaa) of the Five Aggregates of Grasping (pa.ncupaadaanakkhandhaa) in accordance with the principle of Pa.ticca Samuppaada, as, for instance, set forth at S. II. 28:

'Thus is form; thus is its arising; thus is its passing away.

'Thus is feeling; thus is its arising; thus is its passing away.

'Thus is perception; thus is its arising; thus is its passing away.

'Thus is formations; thus is their arising; thus is their passing away.

'Thus is consciousness; thus is its arising; thus is its passing away.

Thus: 'this' being, 'that' becomes; from the arising of this, that arises; this not being, that becomes not; from the ceasing of this, that ceases.

That is to say, conditioned by ignorance, formations come to pass; conditioned by formations, consciousness comes to pass; conditioned by consciousness, name-and-form, conditioned by name-and-form the sixfold sense-sphere, contact; conditioned by contact, feeling, conditioned by feeling, craving; conditioned by craving, grasping; conditioned by grasping, becoming; conditioned by becoming, birth; conditioned by birth, old-age and death, sorrow, lamentation, suffering, grief and despair come to pass. Such is the arising of this entire mass of suffering. But from the utter fading away and cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of formations; from the cessation of formations, the cessation of consciousness... from the cessation of birth, old-age and death, sorrow, lamentation, suffering, grief and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering.'

This 'investigation by way of Dependent Arising' is an illustration of the practical application of that law in order to understand the structure of experience. By tracing experience to its very source — ignorance — one understands the cumulative process (upacaya — M. III 287 [MN 148 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html]) whereby the Five Aggregates of Grasping come into existence. 'Attention-by-way-of-matrix' (yonisomanasikaara) is an integral element in the law of Dependent Arising, as the Mahaapadaana Sutta (D. II 31ff [DN 14]) clearly reveals. Ignorance, when discovered, is transmuted into Knowledge, and as such, the outcome of this yonisomanasikaara is the destruction of that foundation on which the structure of sense-experience rests precariously balanced.

The three ways of investigation would thus lead to a comprehension of the three basic categories, 'khandhaa' (aggregates), 'aayatanaani' (spheres) and 'dhaatuyo' (elements).

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:03 am

mikenz66 wrote:it is possible that the phrase "three modes of investigation" may also be borrowed from musical theory: it may refer to three ways of testing a musical scale once it has been tuned.

Anybody know anything about this?

I play guitar and have tuned my guitar many times and am not aware of three specific ways of doing it.

Reading further:
There is the case where a monk investigates in terms of properties, investigates in terms of sense spheres, investigates in terms of dependent co-arising

1) In terms of properties: You could tune musical scales by measuring their specific frequencies, such as with a device that measures it.
2) In terms of sense-spheres: You could tune musical scales through doing it by ear.
3) In terms of dependent co-arising: ?????
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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:07 am

OK, time to test if anyone is paying attention:

The Blessed One said: "Monks, a monk who is skilled in seven bases and has three modes of investigation is fulfilled & fully accomplished in this doctrine & discipline — the ultimate person.

    1. What are the seven points/bases?

    2. How are they related to lists in other Suttas?

    3. What are the the three modes of investigation?

    4. Comment on how they are related to instructions in other Suttas

:anjali:
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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby BlackBird » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:13 am

mikenz66 wrote:OK, time to test if anyone is paying attention:


Certainly paying attention Mike, read the whole thing, I did. As for the questions, that might require a bit of further investigation.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:21 am

Individual wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:it is possible that the phrase "three modes of investigation" may also be borrowed from musical theory: it may refer to three ways of testing a musical scale once it has been tuned.

Anybody know anything about this?

I play guitar and have tuned my guitar many times and am not aware of three specific ways of doing it.

Reading further:
There is the case where a monk investigates in terms of properties, investigates in terms of sense spheres, investigates in terms of dependent co-arising

1) In terms of properties: You could tune musical scales by measuring their specific frequencies, such as with a device that measures it.
2) In terms of sense-spheres: You could tune musical scales through doing it by ear.
3) In terms of dependent co-arising: ?????

In terms of the Suttas, the three modes are different ways of "slicing up" experience, in terms of elements, sense bases, and conditionality of the arising of phenomena. I'd say that's the a normal sort of progression in meditation practise, where one starts with body (harness, motion, heat, fluidity) and as one becomes more adept one is aware of things arising at the different sense bases. Seeing the conditionality of dependent origination would be considered more advanced.

I'm not sure if Ven Thanissaro had particular one-to-one analogies in mind regarding tuning that would match the three modes, but there are many ways to test tuning, including playing chords, playing the same notes on different strings, playing harmonics, playing scales.

:anjali:
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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:24 am

BlackBird wrote: As for the questions, that might require a bit of further investigation.

Yes, and make sure you investigate in three ways... :sage:

Actually, it's interesting that Vens. Thanissaro and Nanananda must think that the seven bases are so obvious to all readers that neither has a footnote on them.

:anjali:
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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby BlackBird » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:30 am

What does Ven. Bodhi have to say? To the SN I go!

Edit: Okay here's some notes from Ven. Bodhi's translation:

87. The seven cases are obtained by merging the tetrad of the preceding sutta with the triad of 22:26. Spk (commentary): This sutta is a statement of both congratulations and enticement. For just as a king who has won a battle rewards and honours his victorious warriors in order to inspire the other soldiers to become heroes, so the Blessed One extols and praises the arahants in order to inspire the others to attain the fruit of arahantship.

88. A triple investigator (tividhupaparikkhi). This may be understood by way of the Dhatusamyutta (SN 14), the Salayatanasamyutta (SN 35) and the Nidanasamyutta (SN 12). See too MN No. 115, where skill in the elements, sense bases and dependent origination is explained in detail, augmented by the skill of knowing the possible and impossible.


Not sure if that helps or not.
Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:33 am

BlackBird wrote:What does Ven. Bodhi have to say? To the SN I go!

Hmm, aren't there rules about plagiarism on this board? :reading:

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:35 am

mikenz66 wrote:In terms of the Suttas, the three modes are different ways of "slicing up" experience, in terms of elements, sense bases, and conditionality of the arising of phenomena. I'd say that's the a normal sort of progression in meditation practise, where one starts with body (harness, motion, heat, fluidity) and as one becomes more adept one is aware of things arising at the different sense bases. Seeing the conditionality of dependent origination would be considered more advanced.

I'm not sure if Ven Thanissaro had particular one-to-one analogies in mind regarding tuning that would match the three modes, but there are many ways to test tuning, including playing chords, playing the same notes on different strings, playing harmonics, playing scales.

There's many ways you could tune them. You could tune the strings top to bottom, bottom to top, start from the middle, tune the strings alternating from the outside and work your way inward, you could strum the whole thing to find what's off (that's rather difficult but you can memorize the melodic sound of the 6 strings in tune, even though it's a strange sound), you could play two strings (open) to see what's off, play the same note on two different strings, or play different notes which are supposed to sound melodic, or play an entire song while listening for what's wrong.

With the three modes of investigation: Elements, sense-bases, and conditionality... How is the third not merely included with the former two? If you see the elements correctly, you see it rises and falls, in dependence on other things. And if you investigate the sense-bases clearly, you see that the objects of the senses are notself and impermanent.

I could take this even further, though. You could say that the elements are included within the sense-bases too... Because apart from the sense-bases, there are no elements to refer to. And apart from the elements, there are no sense-bases. In both cases, if there were, what are they?
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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby BlackBird » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:39 am

mikenz66 wrote:
BlackBird wrote:What does Ven. Bodhi have to say? To the SN I go!

Hmm, aren't there rules about plagiarism on this board? :reading:

Mike


EH?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:40 am

mikenz66 wrote:
BlackBird wrote:What does Ven. Bodhi have to say? To the SN I go!

Hmm, aren't there rules about plagiarism on this board? :reading:

Mike

It's reasonable to permit if it's skillful. And unless he pastes the entire book, I'd argue anything he posts would fall under "fair use."
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby BlackBird » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:43 am

Individual wrote: I'd argue anything he posts would fall under "fair use."


As would I. I can fire off an email if you really want to be sure Mike, but I doubt Ven. Bodhi would care whether people post small excerpts in an informal Dhamma discussion board, especially considering the topic at hand. I've done this on a number of occasions and so far no trouble.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:09 am

Individual wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
BlackBird wrote:What does Ven. Bodhi have to say? To the SN I go!

Hmm, aren't there rules about plagiarism on this board? :reading:
Mike

It's reasonable to permit if it's skillful. And unless he pastes the entire book, I'd argue anything he posts would fall under "fair use."

Hmm, you guys really are serious today! :spy:
I guess I need to put more smilies in when I'm trying to make a joke about cheating on my little "test"... :tongue:

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:17 am

Hi Individual,
Individual wrote:With the three modes of investigation: Elements, sense-bases, and conditionality... How is the third not merely included with the former two? If you see the elements correctly, you see it rises and falls, in dependence on other things. And if you investigate the sense-bases clearly, you see that the objects of the senses are notself and impermanent.

I could take this even further, though. You could say that the elements are included within the sense-bases too... Because apart from the sense-bases, there are no elements to refer to. And apart from the elements, there are no sense-bases. In both cases, if there were, what are they?

Yes, of course they are interrelated. As I said, various ways of slicing up experience. I saw it as a progression (starting off with the more basic observation that "there is heat", etc...) so that the third included the other two (heat has this cause or this effect...), but of course there are always different ways of analysing it.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby alan » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:53 am

Thank you, Mike. This is a good post.
Better way of seeing if anyone is paying attention might be to ask for a summary of the basic teaching. (Have to admit I'm not big into lists).
So I'll take a shot: No sense experience is ever satisfying, due to their changing nature. Understand that, and realize liberation through lack of clinging.

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby alan » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:06 am

Isn't that the message repeated throughout SN 22?

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:15 am

alan wrote:Isn't that the message repeated throughout SN 22?

Well, yes, SN22 is supposed to emphasise the First Noble Truth, according to Bhikku Bodhi's overview that I quoted here
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=345&p=88300#p88300

What I was trying to get at in my questions was where you've seen the list of seven (or parts of the list of seven) before...

Mike

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby alan » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:15 am

List this, list that. I don't care about lists. I'm interested in understanding.

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:14 pm

Hi Mike

Great class you got going there! Good luck with it. :anjali:

with metta

RYB/Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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