SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:13 pm

Hi Matheesha,
rowyourboat wrote:Great class you got going there! Good luck with it. :anjali:

Thanks, but no-one is answering my question about where else the seven points appear. Perhaps it's either too easy or too difficult....

Or, perhaps the problem is that the assignment is not being graded... :sage:

Here's a hint: The seven points are an extremely common group of four, plus a somewhat common group of three...

:anjali:
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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:30 pm

:rofl:

1) the stuff
2) origin of the stuff
3) the cessation of the stuff
4) how on earth you got there

5) why stuff is great
6) whats not so good about it
7) the escape from stuff

Do I get full marks? (apart from acuracy of terminology :tongue: )

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:55 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Do I get full marks? (apart from acuracy of terminology :tongue: )

Hmm, I'll have to consult the exam moderators on that...

As you say, what we have in the seven-fold list:
"And how is a monk skilled in seven bases? There is the case where a monk discerns form, the origination of form, the cessation of form, the path of practice leading to the cessation of form. He discerns the allure of form, the drawback of form, and the escape from form.

is the four truths pattern, which of course appears in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html, but the application to the aggregates is in the previous Sutta, SN 22.57 Parivatta Sutta: The (Fourfold) Round http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.056.than.html
"The fourfold round in what way? I had direct knowledge of form... of the origination of form... of the cessation of form... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of form.
...


The three-fold pattern of allure, drawback, escape also appears in a number of suttas: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.088.than.html, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.023.than.html
What is the allure of feeling, what is its drawback, what is the escape from it?"


:anjali:
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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:58 pm

Excellent Mike,

Now how do we get to know Stuff?

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:03 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Now how do we get to know Stuff?

Isn't that what the three modes of investigation are about?

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:36 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Now how do we get to know Stuff?

Isn't that what the three modes of investigation are about?

Mike

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The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:03 pm

You might be on to something there Mike- how can we see the allure, drawback and escape of something then?

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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby Individual » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:42 pm

rowyourboat wrote:You might be on to something there Mike- how can we see the allure, drawback and escape of something then?

with metta

If anyone answered, it would be "speaking and listening," or "making and receiving thoughts," instead of seeing.
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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:54 am

OK, here are some comments from Bhikkhu Bodhi (BB) and Commentary (Spk).

BB: The seven cases (sattatthana) are obtained by merging the tetrad of the preceding sutta with the triad of SN 22:26.
[As we have already discussed above.]

Spk: This sutta is a statement of both congratulations (ussada-nandiya) and enticement (palobhianiya). For just as a king who has won a battle rewards and honours his victorious warriors in order to inspire the other soldiers to become heroes, so the Blessed One extols and praises the arahants in order to inspire the others to attain the fruit of arahantship.

BB: A triple investigator (tividhupaparikkhi). This may be understood by way of the Dhatusamyutta(SN 14, Elements http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/index.html), the Salayatanasamyutta (SN 36, The six senses http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html#sn35), and tha Nidanasamyutta (SN 12, Paticcasamuppada (dependent co-arising) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html#sn12). See too MN 115 http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/Majjhima-Nikaya/mn-115.htm, where skill in the elements, sense bases and dependent origination is explained in detail, augmented by the skill of knowing the possible and the impossible.
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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:14 am

Recall Bhikkhu Nanananda's comments about the investigation in three ways:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=6278#p99192
"As to that, monks, a monk investigates things by way of the elements,[54] by way of sense-spheres,[55] by way of Dependent Arising[56].

He makes the point that investigation by way of Dependent Arising leads to an understanding of the aggregates:
This 'investigation by way of Dependent Arising' is an illustration of the practical application of that law in order to understand the structure of experience. By tracing experience to its very source — ignorance — one understands the cumulative process (upacaya — M. III 287 [MN 148 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html]) whereby the Five Aggregates of Grasping come into existence. 'Attention-by-way-of-matrix' (yonisomanasikaara) is an integral element in the law of Dependent Arising, as the Mahaapadaana Sutta (D. II 31ff [DN 14]) clearly reveals. Ignorance, when discovered, is transmuted into Knowledge, and as such, the outcome of this yonisomanasikaara is the destruction of that foundation on which the structure of sense-experience rests precariously balanced.

and hence:
The three ways of investigation would thus lead to a comprehension of the three basic categories, 'khandhaa' (aggregates), 'aayatanaani' (spheres) and 'dhaatuyo' (elements).
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Re: SN 22.57: Sattatthana Sutta — Seven Bases

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:19 am

Hi Mike

Skanda, datu, ayatana is one approach to understanding the first insight knowledge of nama-rupa paricceda nana. ie- it will make you clearly understand how the 'world' can be categorized. But to understand it at depth we need to take a few steps further- ie we need to see the arising and passing away of these categories- then we will begin to see the 'aadinava'- the drawbacks in terms of anicca, dukka and anatta (also in terms of bhanga, bhaya and ..aadinava nana).

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