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by Spiny Norman
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:34 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

So you don't know what "contact by the body" means in relation to Nibbana? OK.
by Spiny Norman
Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:39 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

So if Nibbana is continuously present as a dhamma (it doesn't arise or cease) why is there not continuous cognition of it? Nibbana element can't be cognized because it is "contacted with the body". Why then can't it be continuously "contacted with the body"? Because of the "clouds" of delusion and ...
by Spiny Norman
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:18 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

I'm not sure. Nibbana is unconditioned, which means Nibbana doesn't arise or cease, and is unchanging. But how would that work as a mind-object? Does Nibbana somehow pop into existence "in" the mind, and then stay there unchanging, for good? No. Nibbāna persists as it is, but when the mind and body...
by Spiny Norman
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:02 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

Nibbana as a mental object (mind object) doesn't sound right either, since mental objects are transient, and only arise in dependence on conditions. :shrug: Are they all, according to the suttas? I'm not sure. Nibbana is unconditioned, which means Nibbana doesn't arise or vanish, and is unchanging ...
by Spiny Norman
Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:16 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

You definition of "unconditioned" certainly does not apply to "States of mind" and "mental object". That's exactly my point. So if Nibbana/unconditioned isn't a state of mind or a mental object, then what is it? Do you have any constructive suggestions? Nibbana [element] IS the unconditioned. Not h...
by Spiny Norman
Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:10 am
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: Anthropic principle
Replies: 30
Views: 279

Re: Anthropic principle

Viachh wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:00 am Tell physicists that their anthropic principle is easily and naturally explained by the Buddhist law of karma.
Sorry, but I don't see any connection.
by Spiny Norman
Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:07 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

See my comments 7 posts up. There is still no clarity on what Nibbana being "unconditioned" actually means, practically speaking. States of mind are transient and conditioned, so describing Nibbana as a state of mind doesn't sound right. Nibbana as a mental object (mind object) doesn't sound right ...
by Spiny Norman
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:55 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

See my comments 7 posts up.
by Spiny Norman
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:45 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

?? Nibbana [element] IS the unconditioned. You must not use different concepts for "nibbana" and "unconditioned" merely because the two words look different. Nobody has explained what Nibbana = unconditioned means, practically speaking. You have explained it yourself above. Theoretically, not pract...
by Spiny Norman
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:41 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

I think that the meaning of "unconditioned" is pretty clear. Not subject to conditions. Independent. Not arising or ceasing. Unchanging. But nobody has explained how this applies to Nibbana. ?? Nibbana [element] IS the unconditioned. You must not use different concepts for "nibbana" and "unconditio...
by Spiny Norman
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:27 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

There is still no clarity or consensus on what Nibbana being "unconditioned" actually means, practical speaking . I think that the meaning of "unconditioned" is pretty clear. Not subject to conditions. Independent. Not arising or ceasing. Unchanging. But nobody has explained how this applies to Nib...
by Spiny Norman
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:22 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

There is still no clarity on what Nibbana being "unconditioned" actually means, practically speaking. States of mind are transient and conditioned, so describing Nibbana as a state of mind doesn't sound right. Nibbana as a mental object (mind object) doesn't sound right either, since mental objects ...
by Spiny Norman
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:29 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

So Nibbana is "seen" with the liberated citta? No. Nibbana (with remnant) is experienced when one sees — dassana/dṛś — "according to what have become" (yathābhūta). Already covered. Once more read what I said above, before you creep on me like that. . . I find what you write very difficult to follo...
by Spiny Norman
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:07 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

Anyway, "seeing" (dassana) the unconditioned with mano is just an empiricit's joke. So how is the unconditioned "seen", in your view? How is it experienced? Already covered earlier - (read it before you ask questions I have already answered). Two estinguishments (with and without remnant) - two exp...
by Spiny Norman
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:05 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Unconditioned
Replies: 464
Views: 5294

Re: Unconditioned

I think you could say that the observer is unchanging, or unmoving. How could something which is continually changing reliably observe change? How could something which is continually moving reliably observe movement? The observer need to be stable. Or, if you prefer, the activity of observation ne...