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by retrofuturist
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:49 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings Bundokji, In SN 35.23, the Buddha taught: Mendicants, suppose someone was to say: ‘I’ll reject this all and describe another all.’ They’d have no grounds for that, they’d be stumped by questions, and, in addition, they’d get frustrated. Why is that? Because they’re out of their element. ” ...
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:39 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.
Replies: 35
Views: 454

Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Greetings,
SarathW wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:25 am This is great but what about the people who are intolerant to free inquiry and free-thinking?
They try to ex-communicate or cancel those who are.

Metta,
Paul. :)
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:09 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.
Replies: 35
Views: 454

Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Greetings,

I've got no problem with the presence of Abhidhamma within Theravada, other than for any Abhidhamma evangelists who try to ex-communicate those who don't subscribe to Abhidhamma or the commentaries.

Metta,
Paul. :)
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:59 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings, So I should look in the English dictionary? Look, I want to search the Suttas for my self. Suttas have been quoted throughout this topic. By all means review the Pali of them if you are an expert in reading Pali. Don't think that I don't understand what you are doing. I've already told yo...
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:46 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings Srilankaputra, See the post immediately preceding yours. If your requirement for accepting an argument is whether the author of a post is able to translate English to Pali, when certain English terms may not even have direct Pali equivalents, you're not going to find much on this forum tha...
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:45 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings, Can you please provide pali terms for what's highlighted below. Sutta Reponse: Never in the Suttas are materiality referred to as "dhammas". Dhammas are phenomena, whereas materiality is noumena. Instead, materiality is represented in the Sutta via mahabhuta (great elements). As for menta...
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:39 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings,
Srilankaputra wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:36 am Unfortunately the redirection did not make clear to me your wording in Argument #1
See the paragraph starting with the words "As I said..."

Metta,
Paul. :)
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:27 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings Spiny, I still think that the inclusion of the mahabhuta in nama-rupa is a major problem for your phenomelist interpretation. You may, but the Abhidhamma quoted by DooDoot above doesn't appear to share your objection. It makes the same distinction I've been making between the two aspects o...
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:17 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings Ceisiwr, If the Buddha did suddenly adopted substance metaphysics, which is essentially what a noumenon is or lends itself towards, then he was an inconsistent thinker. This proposition is inconsistent. The Buddha taught the suffering and the end of suffering. There can be craving and clin...
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:05 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings Mike, OK, so if you take them from "the prevailing vernacular" they are clearly not as obvious as "when they say fire they mean fire", etc. ... Only because you're taking an English language interpretation of fire, rather than the Indian interpretation of fire, in its capacity as an elemen...
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:57 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings Spiny, IMO the actual text supports "mentality and materiality" better than your interpretation, which is "mentality and phenomena" or something? Nama literally means name, and its constituents are outlined in the Sutta. Of course, you're welcome to follow the lead of Classical Theravada a...
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:34 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings Mike, OK, so when the suttas say "earth" they mean dirt? When they say "water", they mean the stuff in the ocean? When they say "fire", they mean this? They mean what they meant in the prevailing venacular of the mahabhuta schema. As I said to Ceisiwr earlier, the mahabhuta predates the Bu...
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:28 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings Spiny, A couple of problems with your interpretation: 1. There is no reference to "rupasanna" in the stock description of rupa. Sanna belongs in the nama aspect of nama-rupa, not the rupa aspect. Correct, there is no reference to it, nor am I saying that such explicit reference is there. W...
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:55 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings Srilankaputra, Common Abhidhamma Argument #1 - Mentality and materiality are paramattha dhammas (i.e. ultimate dhammas) Sutta Reponse: Never in the Suttas are materiality referred to as "dhammas". Dhammas are phenomena, whereas materiality is noumena. Instead, materiality is represented in...
by retrofuturist
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:43 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma
Replies: 182
Views: 2301

Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Greetings Mike, However, I don't see where the mahadhatu are defined in the suttas, so I wonder how we can actually know what is meant without looking at contemporaryish records (such as the commentaries). Perhaps you could explain your reasoning. My reasoning is that: - When someone means earth the...