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by Ceisiwr
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:59 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"
Replies: 190
Views: 1779

Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

How can a thing, even actuality, be considered as ultimate if it's dependently originated? Because it’s not a conceptual construct based on an amalgamation of many parts nor does it exist as concept only, but rather it is an indivisible phenomenon that exists apart from concept. It is from these ac...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:22 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"
Replies: 190
Views: 1779

Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Previously I asked you "why 'paramattha'?" and you began talking about actuality. Since 'paramattha' means 'ultimate', now I ask you: is it sufficient for a dhamma being an actuality in order to be considered ultimate? Well yes. By actuality I mean a real thing that exists apart from concepts and c...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:06 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Can someone reconcile these two Buddhist concepts of self for me please
Replies: 34
Views: 524

Re: Can someone reconcile these two Buddhist concepts of self for me please

Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:04 pm I think Santa did well by bringing to OP's attention the Kaccayanagotta / Channa Sutta.
How so?
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:00 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Can someone reconcile these two Buddhist concepts of self for me please
Replies: 34
Views: 524

Re: Can someone reconcile these two Buddhist concepts of self for me please

It also prevents one from falling into the two extremes of Eternalism (things exist) and Nihilism (things do not exist). That is not what the sutta is saying. It’s criticising the Upanishadic concept of Sarvām asti not notions of existence or non-existence in relation to the dhammas. I think OP is ...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:00 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"
Replies: 190
Views: 1779

Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Ok, but is it sufficient being actual to be considered ultimate (paramattha)? I don’t understand the question? Previously I asked you "why 'paramattha'?" and you began talking about actuality. Since 'paramattha' means 'ultimate', now I ask you: is it sufficient for a dhamma being an actuality in or...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:55 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Can someone reconcile these two Buddhist concepts of self for me please
Replies: 34
Views: 524

Re: Can someone reconcile these two Buddhist concepts of self for me please

I think your mistaken the narrower context of "The All" for its broader one. Ven. Bodhi's citing Comy's explanation to address this exact point in "Connected Discourses": So, again, you keep reenforcing my original point about the Five Aggregates as being empty of Self. What? That actually supports...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:01 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"
Replies: 190
Views: 1779

Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

So, in your opinion, paramattha dhamma are paramattha because they are the same as their characteristic? It’s because they aren’t concepts that come from the synthesising mind. They aren’t mental constructs that can be broken down further under analysis, like a house or a car or a self is. They are...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:59 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Can someone reconcile these two Buddhist concepts of self for me please
Replies: 34
Views: 524

Re: Can someone reconcile these two Buddhist concepts of self for me please

I think you are missing the point. The All is the Totality of what can be known, and it’s all empty of self. I think your mistaken the narrower context of "The All" for its broader one. Ven. Bodhi's citing Comy's explanation to address this exact point in "Connected Discourses": Spk: The all (sabba...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:56 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"
Replies: 190
Views: 1779

Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

But also the group of characteristics attributed to "apple" are real, so why consciousness yes and apple no? When I eat an apple the dhammas of hardness, taste, coldness etc are real. The “apple” is not. It’s a concept synthesised by the mind. It’s concept only. So, in your opinion, paramattha dham...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:50 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"
Replies: 190
Views: 1779

Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

That's the same thing you do with an apple. Only the number of characteristics changes, but in both cases you create a concept in order to name. When I read the four paramattha dhammas, I read concepts. Well paramattha dhamma is a concept. It’s a concept that relates to the real, as opposed to conc...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:47 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"
Replies: 190
Views: 1779

Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

That's the same thing you do with an apple. Only the number of characteristics changes, but in both cases you create a concept in order to name. When I read the four paramattha dhammas, I read concepts. Well paramattha dhamma is a concept. It’s a concept that relates to the real, as opposed to conc...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:41 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Can someone reconcile these two Buddhist concepts of self for me please
Replies: 34
Views: 524

Re: Can someone reconcile these two Buddhist concepts of self for me please

You're simply proving my original point: non-self is clearly scoped for the Five Aggregates. So, I have to repeat,you''ll need to provide any exact quote that provides an explicit blanket statement saying there is absolutely no self whatsoever, in whatever way, shape, or form, at anywhere, any plac...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:40 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"
Replies: 190
Views: 1779

Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

How can you name the actual? When experiencing an actual, due to its defining characteristic a concept comes with sañña when it recognises the dhamma. That's the same thing you do with an apple. Only the number of characteristics changes, but in both cases you create a concept in order to name. Whe...
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:29 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"
Replies: 190
Views: 1779

Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:24 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:20 pm

Let's go further: why 'paramattha' dhamma?
To distinguish the actual from the conventional and conceptual.
How can you name the actual?
When experiencing an actual, due to its defining characteristic a concept comes with sañña when it recognises the dhamma.
by Ceisiwr
Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:24 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"
Replies: 190
Views: 1779

Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

"One" = "inherent"? :roll: “Inherent characteristic” or “intrinsic characteristic” simply means it’s defining characteristic or nature. That is all sabhāva means. Since consciousness has cognition as only characteristic, then we are simply talking about synonyms. You are right to notice that. The c...