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by Ceisiwr
Fri May 07, 2021 10:58 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

... So where does one do vippassana in access or in jhana ? Insight occurs upon leaving access or the jhāna. For example, to achieve access or jhāna there has to be a letting go. There is a natural flow of conditions, without a "self" or controller there. If we stick to access concentration, upon l...
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 5:08 pm
Forum: Pāli
Topic: Jhānā
Replies: 20
Views: 556

Re: Jhānā

It's a neuter noun, so technically the singular should be jhānam and the plural jhānāni . My guess is that the jhanas are rarely talked about in the plural in the suttas, but where they are I can only recall jhānāni, as in SN 2.11: Thanks. So if I wanted to say in the plural I should say "this happ...
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 5:01 pm
Forum: Pāli
Topic: Jhānā
Replies: 20
Views: 556

Re: Jhānā

Is "Jhānā" an acceptable plural form of "Jhāna"? A member brought this up via PM, and I've read conflicting views online. Ven. Sujato says that it is, but elsewhere we have "jhānāni"? Any clarification would be welcome. It's a neuter noun, so technically the singular should be jhānam and the plural...
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 5:00 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

... Sure: [THE TWO KINDS OF CONCENTRATION] 32. Now, concentration is of two kinds, that is to say, access concentration and absorption concentration: the mind becomes concentrated in two ways, that is, on the plane of access and on the plane of obtainment. Herein, the mind becomes concentrated on t...
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 4:53 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Oh my Ceisiwr, did I ever say that the second jhana is arrived at by suppressing thoughts? Not only did you not actually read what I said, you then proceeded to put words in my mouth and set up a strawman against an argument I never actually made. The piti-sukha is what stills and unifies the mind,...
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 4:15 pm
Forum: Pāli
Topic: Jhānā
Replies: 20
Views: 556

Jhānā

Is "Jhānā" an acceptable plural form of "Jhāna"? A member brought this up via PM, and I've read conflicting views online. Ven. Sujato says that it is, but elsewhere we have "jhānāni"? Any clarification would be welcome.
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 4:11 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

That is not my experience. In my experience the three marks reveal themselves as inherent and ever present in the skhandas. When entering jhana, the skhandas do not first come into being - only to later come out of being. It is at death that the skhandas come apart. This is quite odd since the aggr...
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 3:49 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Where are hindrances abandoned in jhana or in access ? The hindrances are abandoned to a great degree prior to meditation, through virtue and sense restraint. This is why the suttas say the monk sits down having abandoned the hindrances, as in prior. During access they are completely suppressed fro...
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 3:42 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Your comment here fails to address what I've said about both verbal and non-verbal vitakka-vicara being abandoned by entry into the second jhana. What I did read was this: whether or not we use words in our head doesn't matter at best, and at worst suppressing thought about it can hinder it. Again ...
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 8:37 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Nothing in the grammar suggests this is occurring whilst in the jhāna To see it as an affliction you need to see it as impermanent and disintegrating, since the jhāna itself is an extremely blissful and refined state (speaking of the 1st for arguments sake here). You can't do any of that whilst act...
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 8:34 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

“Regards” = verb —-> implies there is something to view or consider “in that place” (ie. the jhana) “Exists” = verb ——> implies there is something to view or consider “in that place” (ie. the jhana) “Place” = noun ——> implies there is something to view or consider ”in that place” (ie. the jhana) IM...
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 12:29 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

"So kho ahaṁ, bhikkhave, ajjhattameva cittaṁ saṇṭhapemi sannisādemi ekodiṁ karomi samādahāmi." "So I steadied my mind internally, sannisādemi, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it." sannisīdati = to calm, to quite. Caus. II. sannisīdāpeti to cause to halt. So kho ahaṁ, bhikkhave, ajjhattam...
by Ceisiwr
Thu May 06, 2021 12:09 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

I maintain that the only difference between vitakka-vicara as thought and as a jhana factor is the presence of the other jhana factors as well as the content of the thinking. Ime ca, thapati, kusalā saṅkappā kuhiṁ aparisesā nirujjhanti? Nirodhopi nesaṁ vutto. Idha, thapati, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṁ...
by Ceisiwr
Wed May 05, 2021 11:58 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

This is mistaken. From the “Jhana Sutta”...The “phenomenon” are “there” in the Jhana. He regards them by the three marks and, having achieved “disenchantment” he “turns away from those phenomenon”. so yadeva tattha hoti He whatever in that place exists. He regards whatever exists in that place. Not...
by Ceisiwr
Wed May 05, 2021 9:02 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (
Replies: 172
Views: 2058

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

So if you have mindfulness of breathing with vitakka-vicara (again defined as thoughts, verbal fabrications), it's not a jhana? vitakka-vicara in the 1st jhana do not refer to ordinary thoughts. MN 19 should make this clear: And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with r...