Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Introduce yourself to others at Dhamma Wheel.
User avatar
Watana
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:33 am

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by Watana »

I don't watch anime. Also, like I said in my other posts, the cessation of craving isn't permanent.

After several hours spent in a certain mental state, your brain eventually gets "bored" of it.

This is why, for example, you can't mourn dead relatives 24/7. At some point, you'll just want to do something else than crying and lamenting.
DaniloSS
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:33 pm

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by DaniloSS »

Watana wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:09 am The later generations of monks failed to understand that, and so they took everything literally.
A1. “Now, householders, of those contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view—’There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves’—it can be expected that, shunning these three skillful activities—good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct—they will adopt & practice these three unskillful activities: bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable contemplatives & brahmans do not see, in unskillful activities, the drawbacks, the degradation, and the defilement; nor in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing.

A2. “Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, ‘There is no next world’ is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that ‘There is no next world,’ that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, ‘There is no next world,’ that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he says that ‘There is no next world,’ he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that ‘There is no next world,’ that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.


The wise people are not the so-called "rational" ones, but rather those who are willing to develop the worldview described by the Lord Buddha. Worlds & Their Cessation
Watana wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:34 am the cessation of craving isn't permanent.
The cessation of craving is permanent in nibbana
Ionbuddy
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:20 am

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by Ionbuddy »

DaniloSS wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:54 pm
A2. “Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, ‘There is no next world’ is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that ‘There is no next world,’ that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, ‘There is no next world,’ that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he says that ‘There is no next world,’ he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that ‘There is no next world,’ that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.
So basically this is saying that if you say there's no other worlds, then you'll turn evil? Wow, this is a first... I'm completely disgusted by a sutta. :?
DaniloSS wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:54 pm [url=https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN60.html]
And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others...
What a hypocritical statement...
I still have defilements.
DaniloSS
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:33 pm

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by DaniloSS »

Ionbuddy wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:39 am So basically this is saying that if you say there's no other worlds, then you'll turn evil? Wow, this is a first... I'm completely disgusted by a sutta. :?
It's saying that someone whose worldview denies that there is a afterlife (other worlds) where beings will go according to their previous actions is much more likely to be heedless, complacent and lazy with his actions, is much more likely to let his defilements run wild. After all, such person does not regard the undertaking of get rid of the defilements and develop goodness as important as someone whose worldview includes a afterlife. And like it or not, this is obviously true.
Ionbuddy wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:39 am
DaniloSS wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:54 pm [url=https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN60.html]
And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others...
What a hypocritical statement...
The statement refer to people who do so under the influence of wrong view (which is not at all the case of the Lord Buddha and the Noble Ones). A person's worldview has great influence in his actions and actions in its turn triggers consequences ranging from happy to unhappy, the more distant from right view, the more unfortunate consequences the actions will cause. In the essay "Worlds & Their Cessation" by Bhante Thanissaro there is a explanation in depth.
Ionbuddy
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:20 am

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by Ionbuddy »

DaniloSS wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:08 pm And like it or not, this is obviously true.
I disagree because you haven't given any evidence for why either of these premises are true:
"If a person doesn't believe that other world exist, then they will lead themselves to unwholesome actions."
"Other worlds exist."
DaniloSS wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:54 pm In the essay "Worlds & Their Cessation" by Bhante Thanissaro there is a explanation in depth.
Oh great! Does it include any reasonably solid evidence for other worlds? You know stuff like, how to visit, a photo of an object from anther world, etc. Because if not then... I'll have to put it on the back burner.
I still have defilements.
DaniloSS
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:33 pm

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by DaniloSS »

Ionbuddy wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:17 pm I disagree because you haven't given any evidence for why either of these premises are true:
"If a person doesn't believe that other world exist, then they will lead themselves to unwholesome actions."
"Other worlds exist."
I've already explained through logical inference why people who deny an afterlife are more likely to engage in unwholesome actions.
Ionbuddy wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:17 pm Oh great! Does it include any reasonably solid evidence for other worlds? You know stuff like, how to visit, a photo of an object from anther world, etc. Because if not then... I'll have to put it on the back burner.
Read it if you are really interested to know more. It's always a pleasure to help anyone who can see how valuable is the Buddha-Dhamma and genuinely wants to know more about it. But if you are here quoting my post merely with the intent to "win" over an argument, I've got better things to do.
coconut
Posts: 1061
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 am

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by coconut »

Ionbuddy wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:39 am
DaniloSS wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:54 pm
A2. “Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, ‘There is no next world’ is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that ‘There is no next world,’ that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, ‘There is no next world,’ that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he says that ‘There is no next world,’ he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that ‘There is no next world,’ that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.
So basically this is saying that if you say there's no other worlds, then you'll turn evil? Wow, this is a first... I'm completely disgusted by a sutta. :?
DaniloSS wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:54 pm [url=https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN60.html]
And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others...
What a hypocritical statement...
It's not difficult to understand that if you believe there are no consequences to your actions, you may think you can do whatever you want.

It's literally how kids learn to not touch fire, by getting burned. If one believes that nothing happens after death, then they may act worse than someone who believes what they do here and now will affect what will happen after death.

You may not do what is illegal here and now because you don't want to go to jail, but if you knew for certain that there were even more rules that impact you later on, you would take those rules into consideration. But if you don't believe that anything will happen later on, then you won't take those rules into consideration.

Is it really that difficult to understand?

Here's a little example:

Suppose you were in jail, and you served 10 years in jail, and when you got out, you found out that if you wiped down the tables every day for 5 minutes, you would have gotten out of jail 3 years earlier, but no one told you, so you would rightfully be pissed off that you could have been free 3 years earlier.

Now lets think about the inverse. You wipe the tables down 5 minutes a day every day, but after 7 years you find out that rule was a myth, yeah maybe you'll be a little annoyed but still at least you did something productive, so it's not that much of a loss.

Now imagine no rule ever existed and you never wiped down the tables, nothing gained, nothing lost, but you would never have wiped down those tables, because there would be no need to. Heck, maybe you would leave a little extra mess since there would be no repercussions since it's not your job to clean it.

This is called pascal's wager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager
Ionbuddy
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:20 am

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by Ionbuddy »

coconut wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:29 pm
Ionbuddy wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:39 am
DaniloSS wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:54 pm
A2. “Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, ‘There is no next world’ is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that ‘There is no next world,’ that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, ‘There is no next world,’ that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he says that ‘There is no next world,’ he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that ‘There is no next world,’ that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.
So basically this is saying that if you say there's no other worlds, then you'll turn evil? Wow, this is a first... I'm completely disgusted by a sutta. :?
DaniloSS wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:54 pm [url=https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN60.html]
And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others...
What a hypocritical statement...
It's not difficult to understand that if you believe there are no consequences to your actions, you may think you can do whatever you want.

It's literally how kids learn to not touch fire, by getting burned. If one believes that nothing happens after death, then they may act worse than someone who believes what they do here and now will affect what will happen after death.

You may not do what is illegal here and now because you don't want to go to jail, but if you knew for certain that there were even more rules that impact you later on, you would take those rules into consideration. But if you don't believe that anything will happen later on, then you won't take those rules into consideration.

Is it really that difficult to understand?

Here's a little example:

Suppose you were in jail, and you served 10 years in jail, and when you got out, you found out that if you wiped down the tables every day for 5 minutes, you would have gotten out of jail 3 years earlier, but no one told you, so you would rightfully be pissed off that you could have been free 3 years earlier.

Now lets think about the inverse. You wipe the tables down 5 minutes a day every day, but after 7 years you find out that rule was a myth, yeah maybe you'll be a little annoyed but still at least you did something productive, so it's not that much of a loss.

Now imagine no rule ever existed and you never wiped down the tables, nothing gained, nothing lost, but you would never have wiped down those tables, because there would be no need to. Heck, maybe you would leave a little extra mess since there would be no repercussions since it's not your job to clean it.

This is called pascal's wager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager
I don't need another life to encourage me to do good. I want to do that regardless of what I get in return, because although I have fears it doesn't ultimately matter. But as I said to someone else, I'll continue to practice.
I still have defilements.
Ionbuddy
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:20 am

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by Ionbuddy »

DaniloSS wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:12 pm But if you are here quoting my post merely with the intent to "win" over an argument, I've got better things to do.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to potentially come off like that. Have a nice day. :anjali:
I still have defilements.
coconut
Posts: 1061
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 am

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by coconut »

Ionbuddy wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:03 pm
I don't need another life to encourage me to do good. I want to do that regardless of what I get in return, because although I have fears it doesn't ultimately matter. But as I said to someone else, I'll continue to practice.
"Doing good" is not enough though in Buddhism. Why would someone become an ascetic and give up sensual pleasures if there is no rebirth? Yeah, you could say that because sensual pleasures are stressful in the current life they should be given up, but people are willing to tolerate that stress for their entire life, which won't matter anyway if there is no rebirth. Sensual hedonism is perfectly fine if there is only one life and you are living in a first world country. If you are living in a poor country then jhana is a good escape even if there is no rebirth, such as in the Buddha's time when the average person was basically poor in today's standards.

However, if you know that giving up sensual desires will result in the ability to see other beings, to see your past lives, to leave your body, to attain a rebirth with an incredibly long lifespan such as in the jhana planes, etc.. then there is way more incentive to become an ascetic, in order to satisfy one's curiosity.
Ionbuddy
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:20 am

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by Ionbuddy »

coconut wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:45 pm
Ionbuddy wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:03 pm
I don't need another life to encourage me to do good. I want to do that regardless of what I get in return, because although I have fears it doesn't ultimately matter. But as I said to someone else, I'll continue to practice.
"Doing good" is not enough though in Buddhism. Why would someone become an ascetic and give up sensual pleasures if there is no rebirth? Yeah, you could say that because sensual pleasures are stressful in the current life they should be given up, but people are willing to tolerate that stress for their entire life, which won't matter anyway if there is no rebirth. Sensual hedonism is perfectly fine if there is only one life and you are living in a first world country. If you are living in a poor country then jhana is a good escape even if there is no rebirth, such as in the Buddha's time when the average person was basically poor in today's standards.

However, if you know that giving up sensual desires will result in the ability to see other beings, to see your past lives, to leave your body, to attain a rebirth with an incredibly long lifespan such as in the jhana planes, etc.. then there is way more incentive to become an ascetic, in order to satisfy one's curiosity.
Look, I know it might seem like I'm being unreasonable here, but you got to understand the concept of faith was drilled into my head when I was younger. That didn't help me at all because although I was painfully aware of impermanence I went about getting better in exactly the wrong way. Having a standard of evidence keeps me from just accepting any old story, even if it's imperfect.
coconut wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:45 pm Sensual hedonism is perfectly fine if there is only one life and you are living in a first world country.
See, I just can't understand that sentiment. There's nothing that guarantees that any particular sensual pleasure will keep giving you the same pleasure, or even all of them. Why? Because I can personally attest to this. There was a point in my life where I was so hurt on the inside that it didn't seem like any outside activity made me feel better. Depression can wreck havoc on a person. It's not a feeling I would wish on anyone.
I still have defilements.
Chew SK
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:32 am

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by Chew SK »

Kim OHara wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:57 am
Watana wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:28 am So, I view myself as a true Buddhist, someone ... who only cares about the original teachings of the Tathāgata.

... I don't believe in rebirth etc.
At the risk of being added to your blacklist, I have to say that that is like saying you only care about mathematics but don't believe in multiplication or division.

:thinking:
Kim
On a positive note, not believing in rebirth is like a conviction to attain Nibbana in this life .. not a bad idea
DiamondNgXZ
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:40 am

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Watana wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:01 pm Nope, thanks !

There are great books on every subject, some of them are so well-written you'd almost start believing that aliens made the Egyptian pyramids.

Also, I know enough about science to assert that hormones can't alter the entire universe, so there you go !
You might want to reconsider what do you think science is. Science is a methodology which looks at evidences, data to determine the theories, models of the world. Not pre-judge the world with an in-build worldview and judge data via that worldview. That was the mistake of the Catholic Church on sun-centred solar system. They pre-judged everything based on theology.

Nowadays, many science popular teachers are atheists and materialist. Specifically, they have the worldview that the mind is just the brain, or a function of the brain, so when the brain, the hardware dies, the mind, the software cannot survive death. That's a worldview, a philosophy, which has not been proven absolutely beyond doubt by data. Actual test of it is to see if there's any data which can falsify that model. And rebirth evidences, not just from Ian Stevenson, but a lot of other researchers, (Carol Bowman, Francis Story, Jim Tucker, etc) on thousands of cases, many of whom they can find real world correspondence of what is remembered by the kid.

This data of rebirth evidences is sufficient to overturn the worldview of materialism. It's irrational to hold on to a worldview which contradicts data. The data on rebirth evidences also is much better compared to data on ghost sightings, mediums, UFO etc. If you read Carl Sagan, he admitted that rebirth evidences are data which is more solid compared to the other stuffs he regularly debunks.
Ionbuddy wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:17 pm I disagree because you haven't given any evidence for why either of these premises are true:
"If a person doesn't believe that other world exist, then they will lead themselves to unwholesome actions."
"Other worlds exist."

Oh great! Does it include any reasonably solid evidence for other worlds? You know stuff like, how to visit, a photo of an object from anther world, etc. Because if not then... I'll have to put it on the back burner.
Ionbuddy, to add on to describe more so that you'll google the rebirth evidences up and read them.

The evidences is that kids 5 years old or younger spontaneously speak to their this life parents that they have another parent, family, name. They gave specific names, location of where their previous family was. When the current family finally got fed up with the kid, they drive to the location, the kid guide them to the exact house, even though he never been to that location before and sometimes they meet the previous family. The kid can give family secrets etc so much so that the previous family recognised that this was indeed our family member who died. Usually roughly before the kid was born (read Francis Story's book on rebirth for the one unusual case of after). There was emotional connection, some of the kids have birthmarks corresponding to fatal wounds of their previous person, and have some of the personality traits of the previous person.

Explanations via deceit, wanting to get reward, parents believing or not of rebirth, psychic powers etc all are ruled out via analysis of many cases, they cannot explain all the data as well as pure simple rebirth. Occam's razor indicates rebirth is the best explanation. Do read them.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by Ontheway »

Watana, I guess you read a lot of Phra Bhikkhu Phuttathat's books?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Studying pre-Sectarian Buddhism, reading manga and black-listing bad people.

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Watana wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:09 am
Now look, if craving (a bunch of hormones in our brains) could alter the entire universe and spawn living sentient beings, this phonemenon would've been discovered by now.

It is true that the Tathāgata sometimes talked about rebirth, but that was just a way for him to convey his teaching on the subject of morality (karma) to the people who believed in such things... just like how he'd talk about attaining Brahma (an unconditioned ultimate reality) and the Soul (also known as "The Imperishable) while talking to brahmins.

The later generations of monks failed to understand that, and so they took everything literally. This is why nibbāna is often described in brahminic terms : unconditioned reality, boundless consciousness, cessation of death and old age, the imperishable etc.
While I dont agree, if not believing in rebirth or reformulating the teaching on it it makes you have more confidence in the teaching as 'rational' according to your current views, and leads you to more ardent Dhamma practice and study then I think there is no issue.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Post Reply