An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

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dhammapal
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An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by dhammapal »

Hi,

My suggestion is that an active moderator should be detached from the desire to win an argument. A moderator should be allowed to enter debate but only if give up their role as an authority figure and arrange for another moderator who is neutral to make judgements as to the appropriateness of posts.

With metta / dhammapal.
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tiltbillings
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by tiltbillings »

dhammapal wrote:Hi,

My suggestion is that an active moderator should be detached from the desire to win an argument. A moderator should be allowed to enter debate but only if give up their role as an authority figure and arrange for another moderator who is neutral to make judgements as to the appropriateness of posts.

With metta / dhammapal.
When I engage in a debate, rarely is it to win, since I don't care about that, but to address your other point, I do not moderate threads I engage in unless the violation of the TOS is an in-your-face problem. Also, you certainly can use the "report" function if you think a moderator is acting badly.
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

dhammapal wrote:Hi,

My suggestion is that an active moderator should be detached from the desire to win an argument. A moderator should be allowed to enter debate but only if give up their role as an authority figure and arrange for another moderator who is neutral to make judgements as to the appropriateness of posts.

With metta / dhammapal.
Forgive me but this is utter claptrap.

First of all, no discussion on here is about "winning an argument".
It's about healthy, constructive and informative debate, which often leads to greater understanding on all sides.

Secondly, Moderating a Forum is a massive learning curve and speaking from a personal perspective, does a huge amount in teaching a person about how to respond to situations via logic and wise discernment, rather than through anger, impatience or affront.

Thirdly, a good Moderator is more than capable of 'wearing two hats', precisely through learning how to evaluate and discern wisely.

As a Moderator, I used to regularly involve myself in forum discussions and I never permitted my role to influence my input; neither did I ever take rude and inappropriate advantage of the fact I could 'zap' members had I wanted to.

And frankly, from what I have seen on this forum, there is no danger of Moderators on here behaving with anything other than the decorum and standard to which they rise.

So, I wholeheartedly disagree with your post and find it without foundation.

If YOU cannot appreciate the impartiality, effort and diligence with which the Moderators here do their job, then the flawed perception is yours to deal with, for yourself.

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

dhammapal wrote: My suggestion is that an active moderator should be detached from the desire to win an argument.
I agree in principle, but I haven't observed any particular problems on this forum.
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Ben
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by Ben »

Greetings Dhammapal,
While some moderators do not actively moderate threads in which they participate, I am loathe to support a change to their code of conduct. It's important for us to have moderators who can respond swiftly, and without fear or favour. By forcing moderators not to participate in discussions while moderating is too great a burden/impost on what is a thankless task.
I urge you to avail yourself of the complaints procedure which is pinned in the announcements forum.
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Mkoll
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by Mkoll »

dhammapal wrote:Hi,

My suggestion is that an active moderator should be detached from the desire to win an argument. A moderator should be allowed to enter debate but only if give up their role as an authority figure and arrange for another moderator who is neutral to make judgements as to the appropriateness of posts.

With metta / dhammapal.
The moderators here tend to be the most active members. This forum would be pretty boring without their participation in discussion and debate.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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SDC
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by SDC »

I disgree, dhammapal. Engaging in free discussion is the entire point of this forum and their responsibilities as moderators shouldn't exclude them from that opportunity.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by Crazy cloud »

lucky lazy me .. thx "SDC" :goodpost:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
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Aloka
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by Aloka »

dhammapal wrote:
My suggestion is that an active moderator should be detached from the desire to win an argument. A moderator should be allowed to enter debate but only if give up their role as an authority figure and arrange for another moderator who is neutral to make judgements as to the appropriateness of posts.
I disagree. I think that moderators should be able to debate just like anyone else, without the need for unnecessary policing from other moderators .

:)
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

dhammapal wrote:Hi,

My suggestion is that an active moderator should be detached from the desire to win an argument. A moderator should be allowed to enter debate but only if give up their role as an authority figure and arrange for another moderator who is neutral to make judgements as to the appropriateness of posts.

With metta / dhammapal.
I will add, as a point of interest, that on one thread, two other members and I indulged in some light-hearted banter which took the subject off-topic. Our posts were duly deleted, and we were gently admonished via PM, by the Moderator.
One of the other"offending" members was ALSO a Moderator.
So any thought of preferential treatment, or possible reluctance of one Mod dealing with another, may here be dispensed with.


Just FYI....

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by DNS »

Thank you for your concern. We only have a small number of volunteer moderators, and so it is not practical for moderators to completely exclude themselves from moderating at the same time as participating in discussion. However, in practice, moderators do not make moderating decisions when they are actively participating in a contentious discussion --- in such cases the issue is discussed by the moderation team, and any necessary disciplinary action is taken by another moderator or admin.
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mikenz66
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks David,

I think it's a valid question, and one we are obviously mindful of.

:anjali:
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m0rl0ck
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by m0rl0ck »

dhammapal wrote:Hi,

My suggestion is that an active moderator should be detached from the desire to win an argument.
When you have adversaries in an argument to win it, the truth usually suffers. Personally, i have no objection to mods contributing to threads. Like many of the rest of us they are mostly sane most of the time. :) and imo the dhammawheel mods do great job compared to some buddhist boards i have seen.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
SarathW
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by SarathW »

This may some help to this thread.

“Once one has attained full Awakening and needs to do nothing more for one's own welfare, one continues to act for the welfare of others within the framework of three frames of reference (or "establishings of mindfulness") [§179], different from the four discussed in this section. The three are: the ability to remain (1) untroubled, mindful, and alert when others do not respond to one's teachings; (2) equanimous, mindful, and alert when some do and some do not respond to one's teachings; and (3) untroubled, mindful, and alert when others do respond to one's teachings. In other words, one's mental balance is so firm that others' success or failure in responding to one's help cannot disturb the mind. It is only in this context — the three frames of reference following full Awakening — that the Buddha allows for the possibility of helping others with no thought for one's own welfare, for at that point one's true welfare has no further needs. The Awakened person lives out the remainder of his/her life, insofar as his/her kamma allows, for "the welfare of the many, the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world" [Mv.I.11.1].”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part2.html
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http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17802
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Sarath's comment reminded me of a post from 2011 that is shared amongst Dhamma Wheel staff, that attempts to reflect the mode of Dhamma-flavoured forum governance we aspire to achieve.

Metta,
Retro. :)
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Should we wish to escalate our participation to the loftiest of standards, here are some extracts from P.A.Payutto's "A Constitituion For Living" that pertain the roles of governance (i.e. us, as moderators and administrators). These aren't enforceable, but are presented in the interests of the pursuit of excellence.
Participating in government by practicing in accordance with the principles for collective responsibility which help prevent decline and lead only to prosperity, known as the seven aparihaniya-dhamma:

1. Meeting often and regularly; regularly conferring on community affairs and projects (which are to be shouldered by each person according to his level).
2. Meeting together, dispersing together and doing together what needs to be done together.
3. Neither instituting laws and regulations not communally agreed upon simply out of convenience or personal preference, nor denigrating or abolishing things already instituted; upholding the main provisions established as the constitution.
4. Honoring and respecting the elders long in experience, giving weight to their words.
5. Honoring and respecting the womenfolk, protecting them from abuse and ill-treatment.
6. Honoring and revering the shrines, holy places and national monuments, which are memorials arousing virtue and centers of community spirit; not neglecting to honor the ceremonies required for those places as dictated by tradition.
7. Organizing rightful protection, support and sanctuary to monks and priests who maintain pure moral conduct and who serve as spiritual refuges and moral examples for the people; gladly receiving them and wishing for their comfort.
(D. II. 73)
For the lord of the land, the state leader or ruler-be he an emperor, king or administrator in general-there are the following qualities and principles of conduct:

A. Being endowed with the ten regal qualities: to have the ten qualities of a righteous ruler or king (raja-dhamma):

1. Dana: sharing with the populace; he is a benefactor in that he rules or works to give, not to take; he devotes himself to administering services and providing welfare and aid for the people to ensure their well-being, convenience and safety; he renders assistance to those in distress and difficulty and supports those who have done well.
2. Sila: maintaining good conduct; he is impeccable in conduct and restrained in actions and speech; he does only good actions and upholds his honor; he sets an example for the people, commands their respect and is free from any cause for contempt.
3. Pariccaga: working selflessly; he is capable of sacrificing personal comfort, even his own life, for the benefit of the people and the peace and stability of the country.
4. Ajjava: working honestly; he is honest and upholds the truth; he is free of deceit and upright in his dealings; he is sincere and does not deceive the people.
5. Maddava: deporting himself with gentleness and congeniality; his bearing is not arrogant, rude, harsh or conceited; he has nobility and dignity that are based on a polite and gentle manner, inspiring devotion and loyalty but not without awe.
6. Tapa: rejecting indulgence through austerity; he destroys defilements and cravings and does not allow them to control his mind; he can restrain his mind and does not allow it to become lost in sensual pleasure and debauchery; he is simple and regular in life-style, and dedicated to the fulfillment of duty.
7. Akkodha: adhering to reason, not anger; he is not given to fiery outbursts and does not make judgments or act out of anger, but has a heart of goodwill, suppressing anger; he judges and acts righteously with a mind that is subtle and calm.
8. Avihimsa: bringing tranquillity through nonviolence; he does not let his power go to his head or use it to repress his subjects; he is kind; he does not find a pretext for punishing a subject out of vindictiveness and hatred.
9. Khanti: overcoming difficulties with patience; he endures a heavy work load and perseveres in the face of tiredness; no matter how difficult or depressing the work may be, he does not give in; no matter how much he is provoked or ridiculed, or with whatever harsh and abrasive words, he does not despair; he refuses to abandon a task that is rightfully done.
10. Avirodhana: not doing that which strays from righteousness; he does not transgress the principles of public administration that are based on the welfare, happiness and righteousness of the people and the country; he does not oppose what the people rightfully desire; he does not stand in the way of those activities which are for the common good; he establishes himself firmly in righteousness, steadfast and unwavering in the face of pleasant and unpleasant words, gain and loss, desirable and undesirable conditions; he is firmly established in righteous principles and does not deviate from or subvert them-both in judicial terms, namely [the administration of] justice, and in regulatory terms, namely [the observation of] regulations, formalities and administrative principles, including good customs and traditions.
(J.V.378)

B. Performing the duties of a universal emperor: he performs the five duties of a supreme ruler, called the cakkavatti-vatta:

1. Dhammadhipateyya: holding the Dhamma supreme; he adheres to truth, righteousness, goodness, reason, principle and rightful rules and regulations as standards; he respects, upholds, favors and establishes himself in righteousness and practices accordingly.
2. Dhammikarakkha: providing righteous protection; he provides fair protection to all groups of people in the land, i.e., the royal household, the military, administrative officials, civil servants, academics and people of various occupations such as merchants and farmers, country people and inhabitants of the border provinces, monks and priests who uphold moral conduct, and even beasts and birds requiring conservation.
3. Ma adhammakara: prohibiting unrighteous actions; he arranges preventive and remedial measures, not allowing unrighteous actions, exploitation, oppression, corruption, or unrest to arise in the country; he encourages the people to establish themselves firmly in honesty and virtue and also establishes a system that excludes bad people and promotes good ones.
4. Dhananuppadana: distributing resources to the poor; he ensures that there are no poverty-stricken people in the land by, for example, arranging that all people have a chance to make an honest living.
5. Paripuccha: not failing to seek counsel; he seeks advancement in wisdom and virtue by having advisors who are learned and virtuous, who are morally upright and not heedless or self-indulgent, and who can help him to cultivate his wisdom and wholesome qualities; he approaches monks and wise men and queries them to seek knowledge, goodness and truth; he discusses various problems with them at regular and appropriate times so that he may examine and improve himself and carry out his duties rightfully, properly and so as to bring about true welfare and happiness.
(D.III. 61)

C. Effecting the royal benefactions: he supports the people, allowing them to live in unity and harmony, with the four raja-sangaha-vatthu (principles by which a king supports his people):

1. Sassamedha: shrewdness in promoting agriculture; he is skilled in agronomic policies and promotes agricultural activity which brings about bountiful crop yields.
2. Purisamedha: shrewdness in promoting government officials; he is clever at making policies for supporting government officials by, for example, encouraging honest and capable officials and providing them with adequate social benefits.
3. Sammapasa: bonding the people together; he assists the people with policies that support their livelihood by, for example, providing funds from which the poor may borrow to set themselves up in commerce or start business operations, thereby eliminating an economic disparity that is so wide as to cause rifts among the people.
4. Vajapeyya: impressive speech; he knows how to speak, clarify and advise; he takes an interest in greeting people of all levels and inquiring about their welfare; his speech is pleasant to the ear, worth listening to, reasoned, well-founded and useful; it leads the way to constructive action, to solution of problems, to increased harmony, and to mutual understanding, trust and respect.
(S.I.76)

D. Avoiding the biases: when an administrator is carrying out his functions, he should not allow the four biases, or deviations from righteousness, to interfere:

1. Chandagati: biased conduct on account of like
2. Dosagati: biased conduct on account of dislike
3. Mohagati: biased conduct on account of delusion or foolishness
4. Bhayagati: biased conduct on account of timidity and fear
(D.III.182, 288)
Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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