retrofuturist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:53 am
To me this current hoopla has nothing whatsoever to do with Secular Buddhism or even "denying rebirth" - it is these two sets of teachings being misrepresented and pitted against each other - the Dhamma taught "to those gone forth" and the Dhamma taught to "white-clothed laypeople".
As other posts have noted, the Buddha and arahats don't suddenly disavow mundane right view after gaining enlightenment they actually understand and respect it even more..
And this distinction between lay people and monks as to what was taught them was rapidly disappearing during the time of the Buddha.
samyutta nikaya (bodhi translation)
53 (3) Dhammadinna
On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Bārāṇasī in the Deer Park at
Isipatana. [407] Then the lay follower Dhammadinna, together with five hundred
lay followers, approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, and sat down to
one side.365 Sitting to one side, the lay follower Dhammadinna then said to the
Blessed One: “Let the Blessed One, venerable sir, exhort us and instruct us in a
way that may lead to our welfare and happiness for a long time.”
“Therefore, Dhammadinna, you should train yourselves thus: ‘From time to
time we will enter and dwell upon those discourses spoken by the Tathāgata that
are deep, deep in meaning, supramundane, dealing with emptiness.’ It is in such
a way that you should train yourselves.”
“Venerable sir, it is not easy for us—dwelling in a home crowded with
children, enjoying Kāsian sandalwood, wearing garlands, scents, and unguents,
receiving gold and silver—from time to time to enter and dwell upon those
discourses spoken by the Tathāgata that are deep, deep in meaning,
supramundane, dealing with emptiness. As we are established in the five training
rules, let the Blessed One teach us the Dhamma further.”
“Therefore, Dhammadinna, you should train yourselves thus: ‘We will possess
confirmed confidence in the Buddha … in the Dhamma … in the Saṅgha.… [..]
We possess the virtues dear to the noble ones,
unbroken … leading to concentration.”
“It is a gain for you, Dhammadinna! It is well gained by you, Dhammadinna!
You have declared the fruit of stream-entry.”
and the Bhikkhus were many times exhorted by the Buddha about the dangers of samsara and rebirth:
SN 15.1 Tiṇakaṭṭha Sutta: Grass and Wood
Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Park. There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus: "Bhikkhus!"
"Venerable sir!" those bhikkhus replied.
The Blessed One said this: "Bhikkhus, this samsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. Suppose, bhikkhus, a man would cut up whatever grass, sticks, branches, and foliage there are in this Jambudipa and collect them together into a single heap. Having done so, he would put them down, saying [for each one]: 'This is my mother, this my mother's mother: The sequence of that man's mothers and grandmothers would not come to an end, yet the grass, wood, branches, and foliage in this Jambudipa would be used up and exhausted. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this samSara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. For such a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced suffering, anguish, and disaster, and swelled the cemetery. It is enough to experience revulsion towards all formations, enough to become dispassionate towards them, enough to be liberated from them."
SN 15.2 Pathavī Sutta: The Earth
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, this samsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. Suppose, bhikkhus, a man would reduce this great earth to balls of clay the size of jujube kernels and put them down, saying [for each one]: 'This is my father, this my father's father.' The sequence of that man's fathers and grandfathers would not come to an end, yet this great earth would be used up and exhausted. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this samsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. For such a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced suffering, anguish, and disaster, and swelled the cemetery. It is enough to experience revulsion towards all formations, enough to become dispassionate towards them, enough to be liberated from them."
SN 15.3 Assu Sutta: Tears
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, this samsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered on through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable-this or the water in the four great oceans?"
"As we understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, venerable sir, the stream of tears that we have shed as we roamed and wandered through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable-this alone is more than the water in the four great oceans."
"Good, good, bhikkhus! It is good that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in such a way. The stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable-this alone is more than the water in the four great oceans. For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the death of a mother; as you have experienced this, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable, the stream of tears that you have shed is more than the water in the four great oceans. "