This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

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zan
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This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

Post by zan »

As has been clearly demonstrated, there is nothing specific about the term "Theravada" that is relevant to the unordained, and these surely make up 99% or higher of users. My thread demonstrates this, and the general denigration of the only things that are considered "Theravada" by classical Theravadins, like the abhidhamma, commentaries, Visuddhimagga, and Abhidhamattha Sangaha, for example, takes place constantly on this forum, and things like the abhidhamma are disproven entirely here (except for a tiny minority who defend the classical, the vast majority refutes it and is the dominant voice. The fact that classical Theravada subforums are themselves a tiny minority of the forums here demonstrate this point as well). Per the reasonings and proofs provided by the users of this very forum, there is no logical reason to separate "Dharma" and "Dhamma."

Put another way, if "Theravada" denotes strictly vinaya, and the suttas are not strictly Theravada, then Mahayana schools could be called Theravada as well, since some of them share the same vinaya (and/or nearly identical).

Even if not, the term "Theravada" meaning anything unique about doctrine has been defeated by this forum, and, so, the next logical step is to forget it as a separate entity entirely, because "Mahayana" is a much broader umbrella term, and, per the proofs on this forum, Theravada fits under this umbrella, and has no defining characteristics to set it aside otherwise.

Without any agreed upon delineation of what Theravada denotes as far as doctrine, the word is meaningless, especially for the overwhelming majority of the laity unconcerned with vinaya, and there is no rational reason to draw a line between the so called "Theravada" and the Mahayana, as there is no doctrinal line between them. Per the users of this forum, a "Theravada" belief can be eternal citta, which is identical to Buddha-nature, it can be subjective idealism/the external objective world doesn't exist, which is identical to Yogacara, it can be that that nothing exists, which is identical to the common (probably mis)understanding of Madhyamaka, and it can be that nibbana is eternal life, which is identical to many Mahayana schools beliefs, and so all of the main branches of Mahayana have no conflict with "Theravada" at all. It is just silly to pretend like we are a separate school while not disagreeing on any points specifically, and having a title that we agree is meaningless; the only ostensible differences being mere superficialities, rather than hard doctrinal incompatibilities that have always delineated religions, yet apparently do not exist at all within "Theravada."

If nothing else, there is no logical reason to keep the word "Theravada" front and center on this forum, and at least this should be removed, since the idea of "Theravada" meaning anything has been defeated entirely. This forum's subtext should read "A Buddhist discussion forum on the dhamma of the Pali language suttas" or "A Buddhist discussion forum on the early Buddhist texts." or something similar. Because it could be said that the delineation between this site and Dharmawheel, or even Mahayana and whatever this is, is the use of the Pali suttas and possibly other EBT's while throwing out all Theravada and Mahayana documents entirely. But the case cannot be made that this is a "Theravada" site any longer, now that this title has been proven meaningless repeatedly and all related doctrine to what was commonly known as "Theravada" has been thoroughly disproven.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40699
Indian Mahāyāna never had nor ever attempted to have a separate Vinaya or ordination lineage from the early schools of Buddhism, and therefore each bhikṣu or bhikṣuṇī adhering to the Mahāyāna formally belonged to one of the early Buddhist schools. Membership in these nikāyas, or monastic orders, continues today, with the Dharmaguptaka nikāya being used in East Asia, and the Mūlasarvāstivāda nikāya being used in Tibetan Buddhism. Therefore, Mahāyāna was never a separate monastic sect outside of the early schools
-Wikipedia page on Mahayana
Much of the material in the Canon is not specifically Theravādin, but is instead the collection of teachings that this school preserved from the early, non-sectarian body of teachings. According to Peter Harvey, it contains material which is at odds with later Theravādin orthodoxy. He states that "the Theravādins, then, may have added texts to the Canon for some time, but they do not appear to have tampered with what they already had from an earlier period."[27] A variety of factors suggest that the early Sri Lankan Buddhists regarded canonical literature as such and transmitted it conservatively.
-Wikipedia page on the Pali Canon
Nibbandam wrote:An interesting reading on this regard is "How Theravāda is Theravāda?" https://books.google.com/books?id=houcu ... AF6BAgHEAI

A possible answer to this question is that the term Theravada per se only represent a monastic ordination lineage. Monastics adopting Theravada Vinaya does not necessarily need to adopt the same doctrines.
Spiny Norman wrote:Modern "Theravada" is a fiction, a messy hotch-potch of schools and teachers.
Discussions like this are pointless.
dharmacorps wrote:Agreed. Theravada is a label. Like all labels, it has limited use.
Last edited by zan on Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least renamed

Post by Spiny Norman »

If you were to merge the Dhammawheel and Dharmawheel forums, what would you call it?
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Sam Vara
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least renamed

Post by Sam Vara »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:08 pm If you were to merge the Dhammawheel and Dharmawheel forums, what would you call it?
Dharmmawheel, obviously.
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least renamed

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:16 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:08 pm If you were to merge the Dhammawheel and Dharmawheel forums, what would you call it?
Dharmmawheel, obviously.
Or how about a name which emphasises the importance of sangha, while recognising the centrality of electronic (e) communication? :tongue:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

Post by Ceisiwr »

I don’t fancy a flood of socialist bodhisattvas.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least renamed

Post by Sam Vara »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:28 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:16 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:08 pm If you were to merge the Dhammawheel and Dharmawheel forums, what would you call it?
Dharmmawheel, obviously.
Or how about a name which emphasises the importance of sangha, while recognising the centrality of electronic (e) communication? :tongue:
:lol:
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:40 pm I don’t fancy a flood of socialist bodhisattvas.
:jumping:
It's the tantra you really need to worry about. :tongue:
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

Post by dharmacorps »

We can barely keep ourselves in line on this site, and theoretically we follow the same tradition. I said labels are of limited use, not of no use.
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

Post by sphairos »

As has been clearly demonstrated, there is nothing specific about the term "Theravada" that is relevant to the unordained,
In no way it was demonstrated. You simply ignored my comment, as is habitual to you.

Theravāda is as oral, as it is scriptural. Oral instruction of a forest Theravāda monk in Myanmar or Laos is also Theravāda.
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

Post by DNS »

zan wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:38 pm But the case cannot be made that this is a "Theravada" site any longer, now that this title has been proven meaningless repeatedly and all related doctrine to what was commonly known as "Theravada" has been thoroughly disproven.
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dharmacorps
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

Post by dharmacorps »

:jumping: There's no shortage of people wanting to give you unsolicited advice about what you should do with your sites, David. You're a very patient man!
BrokenBones
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

Post by BrokenBones »

If you're going to do that you might as well go the whole hog...

https://www.catholicforum.com/forums/forum.php

You could have a free for all conversion section.
48vows
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

Post by 48vows »

This type of post wouldn't even be allowed on dharmawheel
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

Post by Coëmgenu »

DharmaWheel became increasingly radicalized during the Trump presidency.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: This forum should be merged with Dharmawheel, or at least have the main page description changed

Post by 48vows »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:27 am DharmaWheel became increasingly radicalized during the Trump presidency.
I think alot of the name calling and bullying they allow over there had started before trump.

And alot of the things they do don't have to do with politics, just protecting certain members to keep up their appearances
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