And therefore, God does not exist!

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tiltbillings
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by tiltbillings »

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Being without an ability to meaningfully explain anything, what purpose does the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos serve? The Buddha certainly saw no value in a god idea in terms of liberation, of awakening.

One needs not try to disprove the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos for two reasons: It cannot, by its believers, be shown in any definitive way to exist, and it does not explain anything when pushed beyond superficial statements.
But why expect those who claim to believe in God to provide such explanations or demand such explanations from them?
I do not give a rat’s tookus what theists believe, except when they insist that I believe the way they do.

But we are talking here about the market place of ideas, where god ideas get presented by god believers as a good set of ideas and then these god ideas can be looked at to see what questions such ideas can reasonably answer, if any, in debate and dialogue with god believers.
And those who buy into the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos, when pushed to show what god explains, will almost invariably resort some such dodge as "God is beyond our understanding," "God works in mysterious ways," etc., which is another of saying that the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos cannot explain anything in a meaningful way.
"The idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos cannot explain anything in a meaningful way" _to whom_?

Explanations don't somehow exist in a vacuum, independently of people and their minds, their intentions.

Something can be explained in a meaningful way only to a particular person, at a particular time and other circumstances.

Verbally the same explanation may be meaningful to one person, but nonsense to another.

I find it strange when people demand an explanation that would stand per se, on its own, regardless of anyone, in a vacuum.
This is a straw-man construction. I would certainly not expect an answer be presented in a vacuum. Certainly a lot of theists think that their god ideas are timeless, universal, and applicable here, there and everywhere. And many theists put their god ideas out there as if they are universally applicable, trumping all else, and if such god ideas are put out there by theists, they are certainly open to examination and challenge. Why wouldn’t they be? As for context, it is up to the god believers who are pushing their notions of a god, to give the appropriate contexts, inasmuch as they may or may not be important when such ideas are, in turn, challenged.
tiltbillings wrote:That is, of course, assuming that one demands from the supposed god that every whim be fulfilled,
And atheist arguments to the effect of "My aunt had cancer. People prayed for her. She died anyway. Therefore, God does not exist / God is not worth believing in." are evidence of that outlook of "God ought to fulfill my every whim."
That is more a theist lament. Also, importantly, praying for the return to health of a loved one in a dire situation is hardly a whim. Again, with this "whim" business you are presenting a straw-man argumentation. You might want to back up and try this again. There are serious questions raised here that you have just blown right over, or do not understand.
and there is, of course, no reason to assume that that is a necessity in questioning the whys and wherefores of the supposed god. On the other hand it is not unreasonable for the supposed god's creations to ask of the supposed god why it created the way it did.
Questions should be directed directly to the person whose answers one wishes to obtain. In this case, to God himself.
Why some people demand answers about God, but seek those answers from anyone but God, is beyond me.
That it is beyond you indicates a lack of understanding of the subject at hand. God. Ask god. And how does one ask god anything? A lot of people claim to talk to god and that god talks to them, but god can say very different things to different people about the same thing. “Kill those heathens.” “Love those folks.” I’d love to talk with god. You have god’s telephone number, e-mail address, snail-mail address?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Babadhari »

tiltbillings wrote: A lot of people claim to talk to god and that god talks to them,
withhout being disrespectful and judgemental this is a common symptom of schizophrenia and unfortunatlely psychatric wards contain many patients who converse with God.
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by mikenz66 »

kitztack wrote:
binocular wrote:
Ignoring or downplaying the relevance of the social aspect of going for refuge in Buddhism, or of becoming a member of a religion can amount to a kind of solipsism, a kind of absolute belief that one "has it right" regardless of what the people who are also declared members of said religion say.
i fail to see the social aspect of going for refuge in the Buddha
i disagree with your view of 'becoming a member of a religion'. its more about practicing the teachings laid down. otherwise its just another aspect of an identity and personality e.g im a woman, im a baker, im a father
I think the perception on this depends on how you approach the religion. Clearly different people approach it in different ways. For me, the "social aspect" are extremely important. My (mostly monastic) teachers, my fellow practitioners, and the people I see most Sundays at the Wat...

As Binocular implies, a community that provides some instruction, role models, and companions can be a useful reality check on one's interpretation of the teachings.

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by tiltbillings »

kitztack wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: A lot of people claim to talk to god and that god talks to them,
withhout being disrespectful and judgemental this is a common symptom of schizophrenia and unfortunatlely psychatric wards contain many patients who converse with God.
That depends, but I would say that most people who talk with their god -- prayer -- are not crazy.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Babadhari »

indeed the Sangha is very useful for those fortunate enough to have access one. However the community follows the teaching, the teaching doesnt change to accomadate different member. when this occurs new traditions and religions are formed.
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

God may exist and maynot....God may answer your prayers and maynot..I have heard and seen too many conflicting testimonies to be sure about it....

Work hard, be disciplined, be celibate (it helps but itsnot a must), and focus,focus, focus...donot get distracted in mindless things...that way you can build up your material and spiritual prosperity and build a good life for yourself

I am happy with that much
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mikenz66
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by mikenz66 »

kitztack wrote:indeed the Sangha is very useful for those fortunate enough to have access one. However the community follows the teaching, the teaching doesnt change to accomadate different member. when this occurs new traditions and religions are formed.
I think that Binocular's point was that if you are isolated and don't have a community of some sort (not necessarily physical) then selective interpretation can be a problem.

:anjali:
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Babadhari »

mikenz66 wrote:
kitztack wrote:indeed the Sangha is very useful for those fortunate enough to have access one. However the community follows the teaching, the teaching doesnt change to accomadate different member. when this occurs new traditions and religions are formed.
I think that Binocular's point was that if you are isolated and don't have a community of some sort (not necessarily physical) then selective interpretation can be a problem.

:anjali:
Mike
indeed, a reason why Dhammawheel is so valuable.
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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tiltbillings
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:
kitztack wrote:indeed the Sangha is very useful for those fortunate enough to have access one. However the community follows the teaching, the teaching doesnt change to accomadate different member. when this occurs new traditions and religions are formed.
I think that Binocular's point was that if you are isolated and don't have a community of some sort (not necessarily physical) then selective interpretation can be a problem.
A community can present its own set of horrifying problems.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sherab
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Sherab »

Here's a pretty good video that is relevant to this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew_cNONhhKI
alan
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by alan »

I think it comes down to psychology. Those who insist on God feel the need for absolute authority, and will not let pesky things like facts or rational thought get in their way. They're basically fearful.
No surprise to see that most authority-seekers are also conservatives politically.
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by chownah »

alan wrote:I think it comes down to psychology. Those who insist on God feel the need for absolute authority, and will not let pesky things like facts or rational thought get in their way. They're basically fearful.
No surprise to see that most authority-seekers are also conservatives politically.
Interesting post......replace "God" with "rebirth" and I think it still makes sense.
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tiltbillings
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:
alan wrote:I think it comes down to psychology. Those who insist on God feel the need for absolute authority, and will not let pesky things like facts or rational thought get in their way. They're basically fearful.
No surprise to see that most authority-seekers are also conservatives politically.
Interesting post......replace "God" with "rebirth" and I think it still makes sense.
chownah
That would be assuming that rebirth is a comforting thing, and assuming that politically conservative folks are partial to rebirth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by alan »

Comfort is what they want. That desire overrides reason. They're comforted by authority (as long as it isn't a black President). Change in the existing social structure is what they fear, they are driven to ridiculous positions to avoid it.
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Comfort is what they want. That desire overrides reason. They're comforted by authority (as long as it isn't a black President). Change in the existing social structure is what they fear, they are driven to ridiculous positions to avoid it.
Rebirth is not comforting nor a ridiculous position within a Buddhist context.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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