And therefore, God does not exist!

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tiltbillings
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by tiltbillings »

binocular wrote: . . .
Okay.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by tiltbillings »

lyndon taylor wrote:Are you familiar with the dhammakaya,
Mahayana doctrine, and unless you can give a reasonable explanation of it, I am not discussing it with you.
that was supposed to be the source of some of the Buddha's wisdom. If you want to understand my understanding of god, I suggest you read about the Tao, and link that to the dhammakaya and maybe emptiness, to me God is the embodiment of Truth(Dhamma) and Wisdom, maybe its linked into kamma as well and its definetly a she presence, not a he.............
Emptiness? Shunyata? I don't think it means what you think it means.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
binocular
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by binocular »

Aloka wrote:
binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:[Picture of massive death and destruction due to tsunami or of a child writhing in pain from from a cancer] How do you explain this if there is a god?
By soul, devotional service, karma and rebirth.
Can you give an example, please ?
This is in roundabout Hare Krishna doctrine:

We are embodied souls. We are not the body, nor the mind (nor any of the other aggregates).
The aggregates are subject to birth, aging, illness and death.
When the soul identifies with the aggregates, as it typically does in ordinary godless life, there is suffering.
Such a soul is subject to karma and reincarnation.
A soul has a given relationship to God. When the soul acts in line with this relationship, ie. when it engages in devotional service, the soul doesn't suffer, even though the body in which it is, may be inflicted with disease, poverty, abuse etc.


- 'Problem of evil' (existence of suffering due to God not being both omnipotent and benevolent) and theodicy

If God is the Creator of all that exists, then He must be the origin of evil itself. This is where many religions either collapse or look for alternatives to explain the question of evil. But the Bible says clearly: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

It is wrongly implied that this world is for us to enjoy. It can be better compared to a prison. Existence of prison suggests the existence of a government. Criminals end up in prison due to their acts (karma), not because of government. The evil is really just a misused free will. We have free will to be in God's company as passive observers, servants, friends, children and lovers - or not. Either we're absorbed in any of these five basic relationships (rasas) with God or we want to be independent. In that case we're put into a material world with its laws and have to fight for our survival and position with countless competitors who got the same idea of independence. Just like prisoners. Intelligence means to look for ways how to get out. This is the beginning of a spiritual path.
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/bhaktiyoga/opponents.htm
See more on their understanding of karma here - http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/dharma.htm
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by lyndon taylor »

Dhammakaya is pali word meaning "body of dhamma" and the word in its original use has probably nothing to do with the dhammakaya cult in Thailand. One of the mahayana definitions I remember is "heavenly law truth" but its not just spoken of in Mahayana. It is taught as the heavenly source of the Buddha's truth or wisdom: the dhamma.

The buddhist trikaya entails the Dhammakaya, sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya; Its the sambhogakaya which has its roots in Mahayana, not Therevada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trikaya
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:No. It just assumes that there is a reality existing independently of people (like stars, indeed) and that the truth of propositions consists in their correspondence to that independent reality.
The above are assumptions that are impossible to evidence.
I'm not sure whether you mean that they are impossible to conclusively prove, rather than to provide evidence for. Every time something does not do what I want it to; or I note that I have no sensation in that part of the universe which I call my table, or Saturn: that is evidence that an aspect of reality exists independently of me. Quite a lot of reality, in fact.
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Aloka
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Aloka »

binocular wrote:This is in roundabout Hare Krishna doctrine:
Oh, I thought the OP was refering to the Abrahamic god. I'm finding this thread quite confusing now.. and its also the end of my lunch break, so I'll say farewell for now.



.
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tiltbillings
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by tiltbillings »

Aloka wrote:
binocular wrote:This is in roundabout Hare Krishna doctrine:
Oh, I thought the OP was refering to the Abrahamic god. I'm finding this thread quite confusing now.. and its also the end of my lunch break, so I'll say farewell for now.
And what she outlines in this: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p280681 is no less susceptible to issue of evil than the usual Abrahamic god beliefs. It is a variation on a theme.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Babadhari »

binocular wrote:
Whatever happened to "admirable friendship being the whole of the holy life"?
Practicing the teachings _according to whom_? Whose version of the teachings? Whose version of what the Triple Gem is and what it means to take refuge in the Triple Gem?
How does one find one's place in the midst of all this variety and confusion?
But being aware of all that variety - how does one make choices in all that mess??
And the solution is to just assume one already fully understands the teachings of the Buddha precisely as he meant them?
Just the way each Protestant assumes themselves to have the sort of authority over the teachings of Jesus as the Catholic Pope?
Membership very much exists, and is relevant.
.

you have seem to have many doubts and many questions. i hope you find your place.
this is vastly off topic now
i wish you well
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by DNS »

The title of the thread includes God with a capital G thus, it is reasonable to assume this is referring to the typical Western view of God as the all-powerful Creator, not the impermanent devas capable of producing akusla actions like any other worldly being.

Paschal's Wager and other notions of the use of the term God also assume an all-powerful Creator, so the quotes and points made showing that the Buddha Dhamma has no such notion are completely appropriate.
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by daverupa »

I think a lot of folk probably consider devas and other requisite denizens of the cosmic worldview of the Nikayas to have some significance in and of themselves, in large measure because such beings and their cosmological orders have been so very important in the history of Western thinking about such matters. So proofs can feel important.

But the point in terms of Dhamma practice, as I see it, is that whatever cosmological structure may obtain, it is the case that an ethical dimension underpins that structure. Theisms tend to demand a reversal of this, such that the ethical order emanates from a Godhead which underpins it. But as the Dhamma describes, godlings et al appear when conditions are correct, according to the underpinning ethical order, and are not essences which exist apart. God cannot exist in this latter scenario.

This is the key issue: not whether or not there are other beings such as these, but whether or not they are (correctly) seen as inevitably beholden to the same ethical order as all other beings. Who cares if there really are e.g. hungry ghosts or not; the important thing is to recognize the common causative ethics of samsara for any beings which obtain, & not necessarily to recognize particular ontological emplacements.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Cittasanto »

David N. Snyder wrote:The title of the thread includes God with a capital G thus, it is reasonable to assume this is referring to the typical Western view of God as the all-powerful Creator, not the impermanent devas capable of producing akusla actions like any other worldly being.

Paschal's Wager and other notions of the use of the term God also assume an all-powerful Creator, so the quotes and points made showing that the Buddha Dhamma has no such notion are completely appropriate.
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Mkoll »

daverupa wrote:But the point in terms of Dhamma practice, as I see it, is that whatever cosmological structure may obtain, it is the case that an ethical dimension underpins that structure. Theisms tend to demand a reversal of this, such that the ethical order emanates from a Godhead which underpins it. But as the Dhamma describes, godlings et al appear when conditions are correct, according to the underpinning ethical order, and are not essences which exist apart. God cannot exist in this latter scenario.
:clap: :thumbsup: :goodpost: :twothumbsup: :bow:
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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

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binocular wrote:
Mkoll wrote:I had issues with the whole concept of God that were cropping up as strong thoughts in my mind when I first became a Buddhist. As time has gone on, those thoughts have greatly subsided and carry little strength. It just doesn't bother me anymore because I've divested the entire concept of any attention or energy; it has lost its significance. It's not worth giving my energy and attention to because it tends to lead to trains of thought tinged with doubt and fear (stress). I basically used method 3 from MN 20 and it worked.
Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind.
-MN 19
I personally have no issue with God either. But I see that Buddhists are typically a very different kind of atheists than I am. And for me, this is a source of much concern. It is yet another point on which I and most Buddhists irreconcilably differ.
You say that you have no issue with God and yet you take a position of athiesm. Is this not taking issue? Why not take no position, take no issue? Not theist, not athiest, not agnostic, not any position in regards to this. As bodom's signature says:
Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

-Ajahn Chah
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Aloka
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Aloka »

Mkoll wrote:
Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

-Ajahn Chah
Nice quote.


.
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Post by Modus.Ponens »

binocular wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:And I don't represent buddhism.
Of course you do. The moment a person calls themselves "Buddhist" in public, the moment a person makes claims to the effect of "This is Buddhism, that is not Buddhism", this person is functioning as a representative of Buddhism.
This person might not be a good or an adequate representative of Buddhism, but he or she is funcitoning as a representative.
I meant this as a sort of disclaimer, not as a categorical statement.

The Buddha was supreme among men. There were/are arahats, anagamis, sakadagamis, sotapanas, people with mastery over the jhanas, and people who know the scriptures very well. There are bikkhus, samaneras and anagarikas. I am none of these. I have no teacher in person. Nor do I teach buddhism to students.

Therefore, what I say represents my opinions. The Buddha obviously wouldn't aprove of my smugness and would probably be more conciliatory. Nevertheless, I chose to post that. Therefore, what I said there doesn't represent the buddhist way.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta
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