Praying for Fred Phelps

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Ben
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Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Ben »

An interesting editorial from The Guardian.


Praying for former Westboro Baptist pastor Fred Phelps is no easy task


This is a man who not only preached hatred but spread it, more among his enemies than among those he thought his friends

Pastor Fred Phelps pictured in 1998. 'Phelps has damaged the credibility of any sort of God.' Photograph: Berman Nina/Sipa/Rex
Andrew Brown
Wednesday 19 March 2014 01.30 EST

327 comments
The hashtag GodhatesFredPhelps appeared on Twitter soon after one of his estranged children posted on Facebook the news that the founder of the Westboro Baptist Church was dying. Perhaps more surprising was the news that he had been excommunicated by the church he founded.

It has drawn exactly the sort of angry, hate-filled gloating you would expect. Many readers may share the sentiment, despite their instinct to draw back from condemning someone who is, after all, an elderly and very ill man. But news of the excommunication is worth marking; Phelps, I think, did more than Richard Dawkins to make atheism seem a moral and intellectual imperative.

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The pastor and his church were probably the most disproportionately famous and influential group of Christians since the rather different figure of Mother Teresa. She, of course, became an icon of charity: he became an embodiment of its opposite. It's a rather nice thing about the human race that whereas tens of thousands of people volunteered to help Mother Teresa, very few signed up to Phelps's church and still less travelled halfway across the world to work with him.

If there is a God, he clearly had a purpose for Fred Phelps, which was to show just how repulsive his ideas about man and God really are, and to warn us off them. But mostly, Phelps has damaged the credibility of any sort of God.

His fame also shows how uncomfortable we now are with the idea of a God who hates anything very much. The Bible shows no such squeamishness. God is forever smiting there: nor has this tendency much diminished in the past 2,000 years. The world around us shows unfathomable suffering. If there is any kind of agency responsible then it hates its victims. But where once this seemed to show that God was not someone to be messed with, most people now deduce that there is no agency responsible for the horror of the world. They believe perhaps in a benevolent God, and in some kind of supernatural agency that works for the good, but this of course is philosophically incoherent: at the very least an omnipotent God can't escape responsibility for evil.

But in this instance, theological incoherence is clearly better than the kind of demented and hideous consistency that seems to characterise the Westboro Baptist Church. In fact, the only consistency was emotional: it was driven by a lust for power and exclusion.

The expulsion of Fred Phelps himself from the church he founded shows the way that totalitarian systems will always consume their servants, as does the horribly unctuous tweet from the church a couple of days ago to which they gave the hashtag comfort: "All God's elect strive against pride & pray for - & ultimately receive - humble, broken hearts".

This is a man who not only preached hatred, but successfully spread it, more among his enemies than among those he thought his friends.

So I suppose the task for Christians, as they think of him dying an outcast, is to get down on their knees and pray for him. Pope Francis asked in his homily on Monday morning "Who am I to judge?". The case of Fred Phelps shows just what a counsel of perfection the pope's kind of Christianity really is. All of us find it easy enough not to judge the people just like us.

-- http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ?CMP=fb_gu
Perhaps an ideal object for one's metta.
What do you think?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Polar Bear
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Polar Bear »

That is actually really sad, an old man dying with so much hate in his heart. I'm not sure you can send goodwill to the dead, but hearing news like that really reminds me how much I don't want to hate anybody or even any sentient creature. I honestly don't follow what's going on with far right wing/extremist churches here in America (or anywhere) but I know there's messed up stuff and hate everywhere. It's just sad and pointless and exhausting.

May you all be well

:candle:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Sam Vara
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Sam Vara »

Yes, an eminently suitable subject for Metta. And the same applies for those who hate him for hating. And also all those who have been harmed by him.

Incidentally, Ben, do you post on CIF? Maybe we know one another from there!
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Cittasanto »

All beings are owners of their Kamma....
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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waterchan
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by waterchan »

Ben wrote: Perhaps an ideal object for one's metta.
What do you think?
Probably not too difficult for most of us here, since homosexuals and soldiers were the prime targets of Fred Phelps and his family's vehement hate speech. I've seen YouTube videos of him and his family picketing at the funerals of soldiers. I truly sympathize with those people, but at least Fred Phelps and his ilk weren't violent. I don't hate him, but I won't miss him.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
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Ben
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Ben »

Sam Vara wrote:Yes, an eminently suitable subject for Metta. And the same applies for those who hate him for hating. And also all those who have been harmed by him.

Incidentally, Ben, do you post on CIF? Maybe we know one another from there!
Hi Sam,
I'm not sure what CIF is, to be honest with you. I very occasionally post on The Guardian and Huff Post sites. Most of my posting activity is either here at DW or on Facebook, inc the Dhammawheel on Facebook page.
With metta,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Sam Vara
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Sam Vara »

Ben wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:Yes, an eminently suitable subject for Metta. And the same applies for those who hate him for hating. And also all those who have been harmed by him.

Incidentally, Ben, do you post on CIF? Maybe we know one another from there!
Hi Sam,
I'm not sure what CIF is, to be honest with you. I very occasionally post on The Guardian and Huff Post sites. Most of my posting activity is either here at DW or on Facebook, inc the Dhammawheel on Facebook page.
With metta,
Ben
Sorry, CIF = "Comment Is Free", the Guardian site for comments that you linked to.
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Dan74
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Dan74 »

I found the Huffington Post letter quite moving. Hope some folks here can appreciate it though it is written from a Christian perspective.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-boe ... 93764.html
_/|\_
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Ben
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Ben »

Dan74 wrote:I found the Huffington Post letter quite moving. Hope some folks here can appreciate it though it is written from a Christian perspective.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-boe ... 93764.html
Thank you, Dan.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Ben
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Ben »

Sam Vara wrote:
Ben wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:Yes, an eminently suitable subject for Metta. And the same applies for those who hate him for hating. And also all those who have been harmed by him.

Incidentally, Ben, do you post on CIF? Maybe we know one another from there!
Hi Sam,
I'm not sure what CIF is, to be honest with you. I very occasionally post on The Guardian and Huff Post sites. Most of my posting activity is either here at DW or on Facebook, inc the Dhammawheel on Facebook page.
With metta,
Ben
Sorry, CIF = "Comment Is Free", the Guardian site for comments that you linked to.
Ok, now I get it. As I said earlier, I post occasionally there.
Kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
binocular
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by binocular »

'Phelps has damaged the credibility of any sort of God.'

-- http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ?CMP=fb_gu
How exactly has Phelps "damaged the credibility of any sort of God"??
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Monkey Mind
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Monkey Mind »

I've been following this story in its different incarnations on the Internet, and I find it curious. The story was originated by an estranged, excommunicated son and there has been no other confirmation, official or otherwise. Like a missing airplane, there has been lots of speculation, but not much related to facts.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Ben
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Ben »

Reported on Huff Post, Phelps passed away at around midnight, Wednesday.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5000577? ... mg00000063
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Monkey Mind
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Re: Praying for Fred Phelps

Post by Monkey Mind »

I agree with the expressed intention of the OP, I would never advocate harm.

But as a group advocating hatred, Mr. Phelps and his church were often targeted by the hacker group Anonymous, the biker group Patriot Guard. A group of satanists publicly desecrated his mother's grave. And a rainbow house right across the street from the church. I imagine that many people will find humor in disrupting his funeral, I hope all protesters remain safe during Mr. Phelps' funeral, and none is harmed.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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