Osama bin Laden is dead

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meindzai
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by meindzai »

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I am wishing for him to learn compassion -- anukampa -- sympathy in its fullest meaning of those words. He obviously had not a clue.
He was doing what he was trained by Americans to do.
Non-sense, and really warrants no response.

As I said, I hope Bin Laden gets the opportunity to develop compassion/sympathy from first hand experience.
I don't know tilt. That still sounds like ill will couched in Buddhist phrasing. I hope I'm wrong. I don't recall any Sutta that says "may all beings learn compassion by experiencing suffering." There are other ways to learn compassion.

The appropriate brahma vihara here (besides all of them) is probably equanimity. We wish for all beings to be well, happy, and peaceful, but what they experience is not the result of our wishes, but of their own actions. Beings are heirs to their actions. What happens to the "being" formerly known as Osama is not up to us or our hopes. I can't muster up any compassion for Osama right now, so equanimity will have to do.

-M
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Alex123
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Alex123 »

I wish wholesome happiness to Osama bin Laden. May he be happy! Often, people who lash out at other people are suffering themselves. So the aggressor is a victim in a certain sense. Nothing here to wish even more suffering to someone who was suffering already a lot.

This is what Buddhism teaches:
Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.

"Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?"

"No, lord."

"Then attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw. That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Alex123 on Mon May 02, 2011 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by tiltbillings »

meindzai wrote:I can't muster up any compassion for Osama right now, so equanimity will have to do.
Tell me I am not being a good Buddhist, and I'll tell you that that opinion means nothing to me. Call it what you want, judge it how you will, Bin Laden laid waste to an incredible number of lives without an obvious thought as to the consequences of his actions -- in other words, no compassion. One can pat one's self on ones back by wishing Bin Laden well -- Oh, what a good Buddhist I am --, but that means nothing. By his own actions, by his own chioces, this man (using conventional speech) is going to suffer. At least I would hope that it would be in a way that will open his eyes to what he has done and from which he can learn something of value, primarily compassion. Otherwise, what would be the point?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote: Call it what you want, judge it how you will, Bin Laden laid waste to an incredible number of lives without an obvious thought as to the consequences of his actions -- in other words, no compassion.
As if Americans or British troops didn't kill many civilians either.

An "eye for an eye" is wrong. Please read MN21 sutta on "parable of the saw".
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


It is my opinion that people who commit crimes were themselves victims. This does NOT justify what they did, but it helps us to see the other perspective and be less angry. OBL did bad things, but it doesn't mean that we should feel anger at him. Murder is never justified from Buddhist POV, even if it is murder of a murderer.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Call it what you want, judge it how you will, Bin Laden laid waste to an incredible number of lives without an obvious thought as to the consequences of his actions -- in other words, no compassion.
OBL did bad things, but it doesn't mean that we should feel anger at him.
All very nice. Simply he should get what he deserves, and I hope that that has some value.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Call it what you want, judge it how you will, Bin Laden laid waste to an incredible number of lives without an obvious thought as to the consequences of his actions -- in other words, no compassion.
OBL did bad things, but it doesn't mean that we should feel anger at him.
All very nice. Simply he should get what he deserves, and I hope that that has some value.
He deserves compassion and forgiveness, as all of us.

As I've said, the aggressors are themselves victims. Person has to really suffer himself to do bad things.

Hate doesn't stop hate. Only non-hate stops hate. Lets practice 4 Brahmaviharas to forgive others, and move on.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote: He deserves compassion and forgiveness, as all of us.
The words are hollow. Assuming the Buddhist view of things is the way the universe opperates, what happens to him is the result of his choice. Let us hope that in that he learns something of value.
As I've said, the aggressors are themselves victims. Person has to really suffer himself to do bad things.
All by the choices made.
Hate doesn't stop hate. Only non-hate stops hate. Lets practice 4 Brahmaviharas to forgive others, and move on.
Move on? What does that mean? We should not forget and we should look at this as something from which we will learn repeatedly about ourselves and about our fellow humans. Glibly saying we should have compassion for Bin Laden shows nothing has been learned at all.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Tex
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Tex »

meindzai wrote:My facebook page is lighting up with celebration, and apparently everybody is suddenly patriotic again. I clicked on a news story link and there was a battery commercial that was already playing on the patriotic theme - the sappy, swelling music, the slow motion flags waving. The same type of thing I remember seeing after 9/11. Undoubtedly it will help if not assure that Obama gets re-elected. I don't know what else the result will be. It all seems rather perverse. You can have whatever opinion on it you want. The only resounding message that comes screaming out from my computer and radio today is this: This is Samsara.

-M
My facebook looks pretty similar to yours. It's unnerving how many Christians are celebrating not only his death but also his eternity of suffering in Hell (according to them). To be fair though, in the days following 9/11, a few years before I became a Buddhist, I would've gladly pulled the trigger on bin Laden myself. Bloodlust is a scary thing, especially when it's "righteous".

The Dhamma brings about some powerful changes in us, indeed.

Metta to ALL.
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
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Cal
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Cal »

I guess we're all feeling a bit conflicted about this. But I agree with Alex123 and was about to refer to the Sutta of the Saw when I saw his link. It's pretty difficult to argue that this level of compassion is not what is asked of us, but obviously pretty difficult to achieve:-

"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I'm also pretty unsure about 'justice' and summary execution (and burial at sea ?!) being the same thing.

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Cal
Right Speech: It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will. [AN 5.198]

Personally, I seem to gain the most insight when I am under the most pressure, when life is at its most unpleasant. There is something in me on those occasions which feels that there is nothing left but to be aware of 'this'. Ajahn Sumedho - Don't Take Your Life Personally, p288
meindzai
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by meindzai »

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: He deserves compassion and forgiveness, as all of us.
The words are hollow. Assuming the Buddhist view of things is the way the universe opperates, what happens to him is the result of his choice. Let us hope that in that he learns something of value.
As I've said, the aggressors are themselves victims. Person has to really suffer himself to do bad things.
All by the choices made.
Hate doesn't stop hate. Only non-hate stops hate. Lets practice 4 Brahmaviharas to forgive others, and move on.
Move on? What does that mean? We should not forget and we should look at this as something from which we will learn repeatedly about ourselves and about our fellow humans. Glibly saying we should have compassion for Bin Laden shows nothing has been learned at all.
So the Buddha's teachings on the Brahma Viharas are glib?

-M
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tiltbillings
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by tiltbillings »

meindzai wrote:So the Buddha's teachings on the Brahma Viharas are glib?
Did I say that? You need to start from where you are, not pretend it is something other than just that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by ancientbuddhism »

All very nice. Simply he should get what he deserves, and I hope that that has some value.
Heaven for good people, hell for bad people? Specious reasoning will get us nowhere.

All I see is a heap of conditions, just like my own.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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tiltbillings
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by tiltbillings »

ancientbuddhism wrote:
All very nice. Simply he should get what he deserves, and I hope that that has some value.
Heaven for good people, hell for bad people? Specious reasoning will get us nowhere.

All I see is a heap of conditions, just like my own.
What happens is what happens. It is beyond our ken. I am simply assuming that the Buddhist vision of the universe id more or lress correct.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex wrote:Hate doesn't stop hate. Only non-hate stops hate. Lets practice 4 Brahmaviharas to forgive others, and move on.
Move on? What does that mean?
It means being a Buddhist and forgiving others. Don't let external material situation alter your inner happiness. Anger at people, no matter how 'justified', is not wholesome.

Please read simile of the saw.
tiltbillings wrote: We should not forget and we should look at this as something from which we will learn repeatedly about ourselves and about our fellow humans. Glibly saying we should have compassion for Bin Laden shows nothing has been learned at all.
Typically, revenge brings revenge. His death does NOT help. He is now considered to be a Martyr, and his death will anger even more muslims to take up arms. In the 10 years of running Al-Qaeda, he probably reorganized that evil organization and it has new leaders.

The media gives a certain point of view. We all have heard that Osama Bin Laden hates America. But an important question is not asked, "why does OBL hates America" and "other than symbolic victory, ten years later, and three thousand + Americans killed, what does his death bring"?


First vipassanā insight is to separate nāma from rūpa. What happens to the body doesn't have to affect the emotions. It is possible to be at peace no matter what external circumstances are. Arahants are always at inner peace no matter what. So to follow this insight means not to resist anger at external situation (ex: planes crashing into buildings) etc.


"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding." - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Also I am saddened by what I've read in a newspaper today. What "justice has been done"? Are we caveman where 'might makes it right'? In a democratic society, we should have captured him and put him through an independent trial. Murdering others (no matter the excuse) is not 'justice' in a democratic sense.


Please read KHANTIVĀDI-JĀTAKA (#313). Bodhisatta was innocent and wrongly accused by the evil king Kalābu. He was cut savagely limb by limb and had NO thoughts of ill will. He forgave the evil king .

"Long live the king, whose cruel hand my body thus has marred, Pure souls like mine such deeds as these with anger ne’er regard."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j3/j3014.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Alex123 on Tue May 03, 2011 12:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Alex123
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Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote: What happens is what happens. It is beyond our ken. I am simply assuming that the Buddhist vision of the universe id more or lress correct.
And in Buddhist version, we practice patience and all other wholesome qualities like 4 Brahmaviharas.
Khantivādī Jātaka (No.313)

The Bodhisatta, under the name of Kundaka, was once born in a very rich family of Kāsī. After the death of his parents he gave away his immense wealth in charity and became an ascetic in the Himālaya. Returning later to Kāsī, he dwelt in the royal park, being tended by the commander-in-chief. One day Kalābu, king of Benares, visited the park with his harem and, falling into a drunken sleep, left the women to their own devices; they, wandering about and meeting the ascetic, asked him to preach to them. When the king woke he sought his women, and seeing the ascetic and being told that he had been preaching on patience (khanti), he gave orders that the ascetic's own patience be tested. The ascetic was subjected to various forms of ill-treatment until, becoming more and more angry at his composure, the king gave orders for him to be tortured by the cutting off of his limbs. As the king left the park the earth opened and he was swallowed in Avīci. The commander-in-chief, hearing what had happened, hurried off to the ascetic to ask forgiveness. The ascetic declared that he bore no malice, and died of his injuries with a blessing to the king on his lips. It is told by some that he went back to the Himālaya.

The story was related at Jetavana in reference to a wrathful monk (J.iii.39-43).

Kalābu was Devadatta and the commander-in-chief, Sāriputta.

The Jātaka is frequently mentioned as an example of supreme forgiveness, the ascetic being referred to as Khantivādī (E.g., DhA.i.126; KhpA.149; J.i.46; iii.178; vi.257; BuA.51). The Jātaka further illustrates how a man's anger can grow towards an unoffending victim (J.iv.11), and how an angry man loses all his prosperity (J.v.113, 119).
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... at_313.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A Bodhisatta practises patience to such an extent that he is not provoked even when his hands and feet are cut off. In the Khantivādi Jātaka, (No. 313) it appears that not only did the Bodhisatta cheerfully endure the tortures inflicted by the drunkard king, who mercilessly ordered his hands and feet, nose and ears to be cut off, but requited those injuries with a blessing.

Lying on the ground, in a deep pool of his own blood, with mutilated limbs, the Bodhisatta said:--

"Long live the king, whose cruel hand my body thus has marred.
Pure souls like mine such deeds as these with anger ne'er regard. [10]"
Of his forbearance it is said that whenever he is harmed he thinks of the aggressor:--

"This person is a fellow-being of mine. Intentionally or unintentionally I myself must have been the source of provocation, or it may be due to a past evil Kamma of mine. As it is the outcome of my own action, why should I harbour ill-will towards him?"
http://www.lordbuddhaswords.org/The%20Perfections.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Below is a very touching story from the canon (if anyone has better translation, please post the link):
No. 313. KHANTIVĀDI-JĀTAKA. 1

"Whoso cut of," etc.—This story the Master, while dwelling at Jetavana, told about a wrathful Brother. The incident that gave rise to the story has been already described. The Master asked that Brother, saying, "Why after taking orders under the dispensation of the Buddha who knows not what wrath is, do you show anger? Wise men in bygone days, though they suffered a thousand stripes, and had their hands and feet and ears and nose cut off, showed no anger against another." And he then told a story of the olden time.

Once upon a time a king of Kāsi named Kalābu reigned at Benares. At that time the Bodhisatta came to life in a brahmin family endowed with eighty crores of treasure, in the form of a youth named Kuṇḍakakumāra. And when he was of age, he acquired a knowledge of all the sciences at Takkasilā and afterwards settled down as a householder.

On the death of his parents, looking at his pile of treasure he thought: "My kinsmen who amassed this treasure are all gone without taking it with them: now it is for me to own it and in my turn to depart." Then he carefully selected persons, who by virtue of their almsgiving deserved it, and gave all his wealth to them, and entering the Himālaya country he adopted the ascetic life. There he dwelt a long time, living on wild fruits. And descending to the inhabited parts for the sake of procuring salt and vinegar he gradually made his way to Benares, where he took up his abode in the royal park. Next day he went his rounds in the city for alms, till he came to the door of the commander-in-chief. And he being pleased with the ascetic for the propriety of his deportment, brought him into the house [40] and fed him with the food prepared for himself. And having gained his consent he got him to take up his abode in the royal park.

Now one day king Kalābu being inflamed with strong drink came into the park in great pomp, surrounded by a company of dancers. Then he had a couch spread on the royal seat of stone, and lay with his head on the lap of a favourite of the harem, while the nautch girls who were skilful in vocal and instrumental music and in dancing provided a musical entertainment—So great was his magnificence, like to that of Sakka, Lord of heaven—And the king fell asleep. Then the women said, "He for whose sake we are providing music, is gone to sleep. What need is there for us to sing?" Then they cast aside their lutes and other musical instruments

p. 27

hither and thither, and set out for the garden, where tempted on by the flowers and fruit-bearing shrubs they were soon disporting themselves.

At this moment the Bodhisatta was seated in this garden, like a royal elephant in the pride of his vigour, at the foot of a flowering Sāl tree, enjoying the bliss of retirement from the world. So these women in wandering about came upon him and said, "Come hither, ladies, and let us sit down and hear somewhat from the priest who is resting at the foot of this tree, until the king awakes." Then they went and saluted him and sitting in a circle round about him, they said, "Tell us something worth hearing." So the Bodhisatta preached the doctrine to them.

Meanwhile the royal favourite with a movement of her body woke up the king. And the king on waking up, and not seeing the women asked, "Where are those wretches gone?" "Your Highness," she said, "they are gone away and are sitting in attendance on a certain ascetic." The king in a rage seized his sword and went off in haste, saying, "I will give this false ascetic a lesson." Then those of the women that were most in favour, when they saw the king coming in a rage, went and took the sword from the king's hand and pacified him. Then he came and stood by the Bodhisatta and asked, "What doctrine are you preaching, Monk?" "The doctrine of patience, Your Majesty," he replied. "What is this patience?" said the king. "The not being angry, when men abuse you and strike you and revile you." Said the king, "I will see now the reality of your patience," [41] and he summoned his executioner. And he in the way of his office took an axe and a scourge of thorns, and clad in a yellow robe and wearing a red garland, came and saluted the king and said, "What is your pleasure, Sire?" "Take and drag off this vile rogue of an ascetic," said the king, "and throwing him on the ground, with your lash of thorns scourge him before and behind and on both sides, and give him two thousand stripes." This was done. And the Bodhisatta's outer and inner skins were cut through to the flesh, and the blood flowed. The king again asked, "What doctrine do you preach, Monk?" "The doctrine of patience, Your Highness," he replied. "You fancy that my patience is only skin deep. It is not skin deep, but is fixed deep within my heart, where it cannot be seen by you, Sire." Again the executioner asked, "What is your pleasure, Sire?" The king said, "Cut off both the hands of this false ascetic." So he took his axe, and placing the victim within the fatal circle, he cut off both his hands. Then the king said, "Off with his feet," and his feet were chopped off. And the blood flowed from the extremities of his hands and feet like lac juice from a leaking jar. Again the king asked what doctrine he preached. "The doctrine of patience, Your Highness," he replied. "You imagine, Sire, that my patience dwells in the extremities of my hands and feet. It is not there, but it is deep seated somewhere else." The king said, "Cut off his nose and ears." The

p. 28

executioner did so. His whole body was now covered with blood. Again the king asked of his doctrine. And the asetic said, "Think not that my patience is seated in the tips of my nose and ears: my patience is deep seated within my heart." The king said, "Lie down, false Monk, and thence exalt your patience." And so saying, he struck the Bodhisatta above the heart with his foot, and betook himself off.

When he was gone, the commander-in-chief wiped off the blood from the body of the Bodhisatta, [42] putting bandages 1 on the extremities of his hands, feet, ears and nose, and then having gently placed him on a seat, he saluted him and sitting on one side he said, "If, Reverend Sir, you would be angry with one who has sinned against you, be angry with the king, but with no one else." And making this request, he repeated the first stanza:—

Whoso cut off thy nose and ear, and lopped off foot and hand,
With him be wroth, heroic soul, but spare, we pray, this land.

The Bodhisatta on hearing this uttered the second stanza:—

Long live the king, whose cruel hand my body thus has marred,
Pure souls like mine such deeds as these with anger ne’er regard.

And just as the king was leaving the garden and at the very moment when be passed out of the range of the Bodhisatta's vision, the mighty earth that is two hundred and forty thousand leagues in thickness split in two, like unto a strong stout cloth garment, and a flame issuing forth from Avīci seized upon the king, wrapping him up as it were with a royal robe of scarlet wool. Thus did the king sink into the earth just by the garden gate and was firmly fixed in the great Hell of Avīci. And the Bodhisatta died on that same day. And the king's servants and the citizens came with perfumes and wreaths and incense in their hands and performed the Bodhisatta's obsequies. And some said that the Bodhisatta had gone straight back to the Himālayas. But in this they said the thing that was not.

[43]
A saint of old, as men have told,
Great courage did display:
That saint so strong to suffer wrong
The Kāsi king did slay.

Alas! the debt of vain regret
That king will have to pay;
When doomed to dwell in lowest Hell,
Long will he rue the day.

These two stanzas were inspired by Perfect Wisdom.

p. 29

The Master, his lesson ended, revealed the Truths and identified the Birth:—At the conclusion of the Truths the choleric Brother attained fruition of the Second Path, while many others attained fruition of the First Path:—"At that time Devadatta was Kalābu king of Kāsi, Sāriputta was the Commander-in-Chief, and I myself was the Ascetic, the Preacher of Patience."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j3/j3014.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."
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