Analayo's article on Ingram

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erasemyself
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Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by erasemyself »

The link below is the Analayo essay on Ingram and his claims to full awakening. It appeared in the journal Mindfulness that lives behind a pay wall, however the link is a free domain access.

https://rdcu.be/b4aDZ
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by JamesTheGiant »

It's super that someone as knowledgeable as Venerable Analayo has taken time to examine Daniel Ingram's experiences, instead of just dismissing them immediately without investigation, like I've seen many bhikkhus do.
Thanks for the link to the article.
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mikenz66
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by mikenz66 »

erasemyself wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:34 am The link below is the Analayo essay on Ingram and his claims to full awakening. It appeared in the journal Mindfulness that lives behind a pay wall, however the link is a free domain access.

https://rdcu.be/b4aDZ
Thanks. Very interesting and useful.

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Pondera
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by Pondera »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 1:14 am It's super that someone as knowledgeable as Venerable Analayo has taken time to examine Daniel Ingram's experiences, instead of just dismissing them immediately without investigation, like I've seen many bhikkhus do.
Thanks for the link to the article.
Well, after good investigation he does thoroughly dismiss the claims of Ingram.

I’ve always felt Ingram to be the kind of arm chair Buddhist who really liked dungeons and dragons as a kid.

And I think he’s a charlatan out to make money off of books under the guise of “Buddhism” that are just easy enough to access for the masses. Declaring your self an “Arahant” as a means to that end sure doesn’t hurt your cause.
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by DooDoot »

erasemyself wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:34 amThe link below is the Analayo essay on Ingram and his claims to full awakening.
Analayo (claiming to understand the Dhamma) is just as an easy target as Ingram. Where does it end? Buddhism becomes like a Christian inquisition. :|
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by Volo »

It's interesting to compare this article with his other work "The Ancient Roots of the U Ba Khin Vipassanā Meditation": the first is about Ingram's interpretation of Mahasi method, the second - about Goenka method, which Analayo probably likes.

In his "The Ancient Roots of the U Ba Khin
Vipassanā Meditation" Analayo tries to prove authenticity of Goenka's method starting with a sentence, found in some Chinese sutra of obscure school affiliation (sentence is about practicing 3rd step of ānāpānasati as awareness of the whole physical body. Doesn't seem to be exactly what Goenka teaches, but ok).

Then he assumes that this sutra could have reached not only China, but also Burma. You might wonder, why does he think so? It's simple: it was translated in Chinese by Kumarajiva! (Yes, that is his explanation, although he doesn't explain why other hundreds or thousands of sutras translated by Kumarajiva didn't reach Burma). Then it should have been preserved for almost two thousands years by some obscure Burmese monks, till it was taught by U Ba Khin.

And conclusion, which is my favorite: "Thus the ancient roots of the vipassanā meditation taught by U Ba Khin appear to reach back even two thousand years into the history of Indian Buddhism". :lol: Neat, isn't it?

So, when we need authenticity we are ready to believe in all that, and it "doesn't seem to be far-fetched" as he says. But when not, then we will meticulously analyze each sentence in Ingram's book, including descriptions of his dreams. I'm not a fan of Mahasi or Ingram (I've read only two or three pages from his book), but for me this is just another example of pseudo non-prejudice of buddhologists.
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by Pondera »

I don’t know much about Analayo. I did find it funny that he discounts Ingram’s experiences as a child while failing to recall that had the Buddha not spontaneously entered the first jhana as a child there might have been no alternative path for him away from his brutal austerities likely leading to death by starvation.
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by robertk »

Volo wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 7:29 am It's interesting to compare this article with his other work "The Ancient Roots of the U Ba Khin Vipassanā Meditation": the first is about Ingram's interpretation of Mahasi method, the second - about Goenka method, which Analayo probably likes.

In his "The Ancient Roots of the U Ba Khin
Vipassanā Meditation" Analayo tries to prove authenticity of Goenka's method starting with a sentence, found in some Chinese sutra of obscure school affiliation (sentence is about practicing 3rd step of ānāpānasati as awareness of the whole physical body. Doesn't seem to be exactly what Goenka teaches, but ok).

Then he assumes that this sutra could have reached not only China, but also Burma. You might wonder, why does he think so? It's simple: it was translated in Chinese by Kumarajiva! (Yes, that is his explanation, although he doesn't explain why other hundreds or thousands of sutras translated by Kumarajiva didn't reach Burma). Then it should have been preserved for almost two thousands years by some obscure Burmese monks, till it was taught by U Ba Khin.

And conclusion, which is my favorite: "Thus the ancient roots of the vipassanā meditation taught by U Ba Khin appear to reach back even two thousand years into the history of Indian Buddhism". :lol: Neat, isn't it?

So, when we need authenticity we are ready to believe in all that, and it "doesn't seem to be far-fetched" as he says. But when not, then we will meticulously analyze each sentence in Ingram's book, including descriptions of his dreams. I'm not a fan of Mahasi or Ingram (I've read only two or three pages from his book), but for me this is just another example of pseudo non-prejudice of buddhologists.
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by auto »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 1:14 am It's super that someone as knowledgeable as Venerable Analayo has taken time to examine Daniel Ingram's experiences, instead of just dismissing them immediately without investigation, like I've seen many bhikkhus do.
Thanks for the link to the article.
Like you do with the weather devas. Providing scientific explanation as base for renouncing the devas. Not knowing that same scientific explanation is also in the Sutta described just before the devas are the n'th factor listed.
Sutta x
1. scientific point
2. scientific point
3. deva point
4. ..

So it is understandable how you consider Analayo being knowledgeable. And on that same note the experiences on whatever meditation done, the psychological states gone through there be it runner's hardship states during marathon, I doubt are different exertion than one would do on a retreat to overcome the n'th hour mark of sitting. Making this psychological thing universal, not inclusive only to monastics is not a mistake in my eyes.

Exact same way as above,

1. scientific point
2. ..
3. god, supernatural reasons

So do you have right view, which is there is parents, kamma, afterlife, devas etc?

I think Ingram has shown the mystical part well, knowingly pulling out the scientific card if needed.
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by mikenz66 »

Pondera wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:19 am I don’t know much about Analayo. I did find it funny that he discounts Ingram’s experiences as a child while failing to recall that had the Buddha not spontaneously entered the first jhana as a child there might have been no alternative path for him away from his brutal austerities likely leading to death by starvation.
It's a fair point that the Buddha had childhood experiences that were later helpful:
“I considered: ‘I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. Could that be the path to enlightenment?’
https://suttacentral.net/mn36/en/bodhi#sc38
And that Upaka wasn't convinced about the Buddha's awakening:
‘The victors are those like me
Who have won to destruction of taints.
I have vanquished all evil states,
Therefore, Upaka, I am a victor.’

“When this was said, the Ājīvaka Upaka said: ‘May it be so, friend.’ Shaking his head, he took a bypath and departed.
https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi#sc49
However, is the following quoted passage really relevant to the insight knowledge of rise and fall?
Screenshot from 2020-05-27 12-27-55.png
Whether one agrees with the detailed conclusions or not, with the explosion of "mindfulness" in recent years, I think it is helpful to have some detailed examination, from a Dhamma perspective, of some of the writings that have become prominent. Here is another article from the same journal where Analayo takes issue with Purser and others:
The Myth of McMindfulness
Bhikkhu Anālayo
Mindfulness volume 11, pages 472–479 (2020)

This article examines to what extent the teaching of mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) can accurately be referred to by the term “McMindfulness.” The application of this term appears to rest on the expectation that teachers of MBSR and similar mindfulness programs, in order to be true to their Buddhist heritage, should inculcate political awareness in their patients, motivating them to resist the neoliberal capitalist system. ...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 19-01264-x
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by auto »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 1:00 am However, is the following quoted passage really relevant to the insight knowledge of rise and fall?
no idea

but there is such thing as seeing a dream, and remembering it during waking life. Then by focusing on that dream there will be a connection like two wires connected together, there will be discernible effect felt on the body too and that done then you move on to the next point.
I wouldn't write off the importance of dreams.

The understanding of mindfulness, 'the present moment' is literally based from a dream experience of being present. If not have had that kind of dream the context will be always different between two persons talking about mindfulness.
All experiences are directly related to the dream, if not actualized - related to the waking life experience, it will remain dream and felt disconnected with the reality and not possibly to articulate it as of articulation requires focusing on the same space where dreams take place at night. And besides that there is a practice what involves focusing on that place where dream happens and opening that cavity, which is one of the first steps when you desire to take control of the vitality in the body and sensual energies, which is on topic of course because arising and passing away supposedly is related to base sensual energies like kundalini(whatever, google is internet search engine) awakening.
I guess Analayo doesn't like this kind of mixing terms despite there is understanding of mixing terms but they refer same thing.
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by Pondera »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 1:00 am
Pondera wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:19 am I don’t know much about Analayo. I did find it funny that he discounts Ingram’s experiences as a child while failing to recall that had the Buddha not spontaneously entered the first jhana as a child there might have been no alternative path for him away from his brutal austerities likely leading to death by starvation.
It's a fair point that the Buddha had childhood experiences that were later helpful:
“I considered: ‘I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. Could that be the path to enlightenment?’
https://suttacentral.net/mn36/en/bodhi#sc38
And that Upaka wasn't convinced about the Buddha's awakening:
‘The victors are those like me
Who have won to destruction of taints.
I have vanquished all evil states,
Therefore, Upaka, I am a victor.’

“When this was said, the Ājīvaka Upaka said: ‘May it be so, friend.’ Shaking his head, he took a bypath and departed.
https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi#sc49
However, is the following quoted passage really relevant to the insight knowledge of rise and fall?
Screenshot from 2020-05-27 12-27-55.png

Whether one agrees with the detailed conclusions or not, with the explosion of "mindfulness" in recent years, I think it is helpful to have some detailed examination, from a Dhamma perspective, of some of the writings that have become prominent. Here is another article from the same journal where Analayo takes issue with Purser and others:
The Myth of McMindfulness
Bhikkhu Anālayo
Mindfulness volume 11, pages 472–479 (2020)

This article examines to what extent the teaching of mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) can accurately be referred to by the term “McMindfulness.” The application of this term appears to rest on the expectation that teachers of MBSR and similar mindfulness programs, in order to be true to their Buddhist heritage, should inculcate political awareness in their patients, motivating them to resist the neoliberal capitalist system. ...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 19-01264-x
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Mike
No. Admittedly. The Buddha’s childhood experience and Ingram’s are drastically different.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 5:49 am Analayo (claiming to understand the Dhamma) is just as an easy target as Ingram. Where does it end? Buddhism becomes like a Christian inquisition. :|
Volo wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 7:29 am I'm not a fan of Mahasi or Ingram (I've read only two or three pages from his book), but for me this is just another example of pseudo non-prejudice of buddhologists.
:goodpost: :goodpost:

Well said, and all the more reason to focus on what the Buddha said, rather than what Buddhists said.

We have the Four Great References, as taught in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta... that is enough.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 3:05 am Greetings,
DooDoot wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 5:49 am Analayo (claiming to understand the Dhamma) is just as an easy target as Ingram. Where does it end? Buddhism becomes like a Christian inquisition. :|
Volo wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 7:29 am I'm not a fan of Mahasi or Ingram (I've read only two or three pages from his book), but for me this is just another example of pseudo non-prejudice of buddhologists.
:goodpost: :goodpost:

Well said, and all the more reason to focus on what the Buddha said, rather than what Buddhists said.

We have the Four Great References, as taught in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta... that is enough.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
I'm a little puzzled by this comment. It appears to me that the article compares Ingram's interpretation of his progress with suttas and commentaries. Using the latter is appropriate here, as Ingram makes heavy use of the insight knowledges map.

Is there something I'm missing?

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Re: Analayo's article on Ingram

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 3:46 am I'm a little puzzled by this comment. It appears to me that the article compares Ingram's interpretation of his progress with suttas and commentaries. Using the latter is appropriate here, as Ingram makes heavy use of the insight knowledges map.

Is there something I'm missing?
Only that if we are serious about the Four Great References, much of what you talk about would not even exist.
DN 16 wrote:Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."
My conclusion is that most people aren't serious about it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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