Unconditioned

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asahi
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Unconditioned

Post by asahi »

Nibbana is unconditioned , meaning ?
How a conditioned mind get to know what is unconditioned ? How this dhamma get to be visible ?

Thanks
coconut
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by coconut »

It's unconditioned because it requires stopping activity rather than doing more.

The path is a progressive tapering of stopping. It's achieved through removing, not adding.

For example, first jhana stops unwholesome thoughts, second jhana wholesome thoughts, fourth jhana positive feelings, Nirodha samapatti stops perception.

Basically you're turning everything off and on and off again to see how the asavas, kilesas, anusayas, hindrances, and fetters, come into play.
Alino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Alino »

Imagine a world where people always smell some odours, they are addicted to odours... smoke odour, flower odour etc... They think that it's impossible to breath without an odour. So they continue to buy odourants, get overdosed then change aroma, on and on...
And then a good man say them: Hey guys! There is a no-odour smell, there is "Air" that you can breath, fresh, pure, you dont cought, you can't get overdose, and it is everywhere, complitely free and unconditioned !

But they are sceptical, and also so addicted... so they dont seek for it, they dont try to study the odour they breath is order to perceive just for a glimpse this magical unconditioned "Air" that everybody speak about but nobody saw...

As said coconut, its only by eliminating odours, only by letting go of all what is conditioned, what is created, complex, impermanent, imperfect that one day our mind fall down on its bottom and find something that is unconditioned, apparent here and now, timeless, to be experienced individually by the wise...

Be happy🙏
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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confusedlayman
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by confusedlayman »

asahi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:10 am Nibbana is unconditioned , meaning ?
How a conditioned mind get to know what is unconditioned ? How this dhamma get to be visible ?

Thanks
when mind stops and starts again, u see the stop of mind by reflective knowledge and know unconditioned.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
sphairos
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by sphairos »

asahi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:10 am Nibbana is unconditioned , meaning ?
How a conditioned mind get to know what is unconditioned ? How this dhamma get to be visible ?

Thanks
There is a passage in the Udāna, that says that only because it is unconditioned, we can leave saṁsāra:
There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned
Translated by John Ireland, Ireland 2007:139.
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How true are your ways?
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DooDoot
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by DooDoot »

sphairos wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:05 am we can leave saṁsāra:
"we"? does a "self" leave samsara? :shrug:
asahi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:10 amNibbana is unconditioned , meaning ? How a conditioned mind get to know what is unconditioned ? How this dhamma get to be visible ?
Although the climate changes and the wind blows and the planets spin, try to imagine there is an underlying stillness that pervades the universe and how this imagined underlying stillness exists without any conditions such as heat or wind causing its existence. This is a metaphor for Nibbana. Just as the mind can sense this stillness (such as when the wind stops blowing), the undefiled mind can sense the peace & stillness of Nibbana. Its not rocket science. '

Nibbana is unconditioned because it has no causes & conditions causing its existence. For example, the sun exists because of heat. Once the fires of the sun stop burning, the sun will cease to exist. Nibbana is not like this because it is perfect peace & stillness that has no conditions maintaining its existence. Kind regards :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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asahi
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by asahi »

sphairos wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:05 am
There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned
Translated by John Ireland, Ireland 2007:139.
Not born ? How to know and recognise it ?


DooDoot wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:26 pm
Nibbana is unconditioned because it has no causes & conditions causing its existence. For example, the sun exists because of heat. Once the fires of the sun stop burning, the sun will cease to exist. Nibbana is not like this because it is perfect peace & stillness that has no conditions maintaining its existence. Kind regards :)

Existence ? To exist means being conditioned . No ? Therefore unconditioned is permanent ?
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DooDoot
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:40 pm Existence ? To exist means being conditioned .
No. The suttas (Ud 8.1 for example) say Nibbana exists (atthi). You must be confusing "atthi" ("existence") with "bhava" ("becoming") often falsely translated as "existence".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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asahi
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:06 pm
asahi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:40 pm Existence ? To exist means being conditioned .
No. The suttas (Ud 8.1 for example) say Nibbana exists (atthi). You must be confusing "atthi" ("existence") with "bhava" ("becoming") often falsely translated as "existence".
Do explain where the difference of exist and becoming .
Alino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Alino »

asahi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:40 pm
Not born ? How to know and recognise it ?
If you encounter it, you will not miss it because it wake you up, as you can't miss that you opened your eyes.

You can recognise ot by it's unconditional nature.

Try this, it's what I used to do: while you encounter any phenomena inside or outside, watch closely if it can change, if it is unstable. If it changes so it means that it exist out of conditions, and while conditions changes - it changes too. So you let it go, as garbage, be cause itsnot what you seek, it can not satisfy you.
Then you take another phenomena and you want to know if it is something important or not - if it depends on something - it's not important, just a phenomena that pop ups by it causes and conditions...
So while meditating you let go of all confitioned phenomenas as "not important", as "unsatisfying" and "not worth of your attention"...
Find any sutta with epithets of Nibbana: unborn, unconditioned, uncreated, non-phenomenal, free from dukkha, free from self, other shore... And check all what you can mention in your experiance with these epithets.

It can help if your mind is pure enought to see something that absolutely pure and transparent 🙏 Seek deep inside, on the other side of your consciousness

To encounter silence you need to be silent, to encounter stability you need to be stable, yo encounter purity you need to be pure...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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DooDoot
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:11 pm Do explain where the difference of exist and becoming .
"Becoming" is defined in AN 3.76, which refers to consciousness becoming "established (patiṭṭhita)" or "stuck" in a sense object due to craving. The cause of becoming is craving & attachment; which leads to self-identity, as described in MN 44.
MN 44 wrote:The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.
Therefore, in brief, "bhava" appears to mean "self-becoming"; the mind creating a new illusion of "self". In short, "bhava" is one of three mental fermentations (asava); the other two being sensual desire & ignorance.

"Atthi" appears to be a generic word about the existence of something in time & space. Sometimes, the word "atthi" can refer to some wrong views about permanence, such as in the term "atthita" in SN 12.15 or "atthattā" in SN 44.10. Other times it is used to refer to a wholesome moral doctine, such as "atthikavāda" in MN 60. Other times it is used to refer to the realistic existence of something, such as Nibbana in Ud 8.1 or suffering exists (atthi kho dukkham) in SN 12.17.

In summary, "becoming" ("bhava") appears to be always unwholesome/defiled; where as "atthi" is not always a wrong view.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sphairos
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by sphairos »

asahi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:40 pm
Not born ? How to know and recognise it ?
When you think of it, you already recognize it. If you can think of an escape from saṁsāra, you think about the unconditioned. You don't realize it "as it is", but you have it as an object in your mind.

You will realize it to some extent directly, "as it is" when you become an "ariya", "noble one".
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
Alino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Alino »

Technically you will not recognise it, rather it will recognise you...

A koan 🙏

Its like trying to watching yourself without mirror...
Or as if you were to be attached to branches of the three and afraid to fall down, but once you realised that you are already standing on the ground, you not afraid to fall so you no need to grasp branches of the three...

Nobody is born, nobody dies, only this dukkha...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
chownah
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:06 pm
asahi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:40 pm Existence ? To exist means being conditioned .
No. The suttas (Ud 8.1 for example) say Nibbana exists (atthi). You must be confusing "atthi" ("existence") with "bhava" ("becoming") often falsely translated as "existence".
I checked and ud8.1 does not use "atthi" with respect to "nibbana". In ud8.1 "atthi" is used with respect to some worldly metaphors which are associated with nibbana but "atthi" is not used with respect to the word "nibbana itself. I have asked aout this several times before and so far from all reports it seems that "atthi" is not used with the word "nibbna" anywhere in the suttas...."atthi" is often used with various worldly metaphors associated with nibbana but "atthi" is never used with "nibbana" itself.

Either this is meaningful or it is a very very very bizarre coincidence in that dozens of times across several suttas "atthi" is used with worldly metaphors associated nibbana and NOT ONE TIME is it every used with respect to the word "nibbana".
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Ceisiwr »

chownah wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:00 pm
I checked and ud8.1 does not use "atthi" with respect to "nibbana". In ud8.1 "atthi" is used with respect to some worldly metaphors which are associated with nibbana but "atthi" is not used with respect to the word "nibbana itself.
Then it is still referring to the same thing. The specific word “Nibbana” not being there doesn’t matter, since, as you say, other terms are used to describe the same thing. This is a terrible argument. You wouldn’t even pass high school English literature with this logic.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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