Regarding moisture born beings

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Andyqn
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:38 pm

Regarding moisture born beings

Post by Andyqn »

Can anyone help me to clear a doubt I have in regards to moisture born beings. There was also a mention that these beings have no parents at all? From what I was able to gather though maggots, worms belong in this category. Scientifically though, these were proven to be hatching from eggs deposited by flies. So, these are actually egg born and have parents? If anyone could help me with this. Thanks!!!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/bi ... gy/maggot


https://www.piandeiciliegi.it/images/d ... dhamma.pdf
9.2. Born Or Arisen From Moisture - Samsedaja Patisandhi
Some sentient beings take rebirths in places where the fetus could cling. Larvae hatch and grow up in decaying organic matter. Queen Padumavati was conceived in a lotus blossom and Queen Veluvati in the hollow of bamboo plant. Cincamana who slandered the Buddha took rebirth in a tamarind tree. Most insects belong to this type of birth.

9.5 The Three Causes Of Birth - Patisandhi
Living beings born out of spontaneous birth and moisture birth have no parents at all.
johnsmitty
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:19 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by johnsmitty »

Andyqn wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:55 am Can anyone help me to clear a doubt I have in regards to moisture born beings. There was also a mention that these beings have no parents at all? From what I was able to gather though maggots, worms belong in this category. Scientifically though, these were proven to be hatching from eggs deposited by flies. So, these are actually egg born and have parents? If anyone could help me with this. Thanks!!!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/bi ... gy/maggot


https://www.piandeiciliegi.it/images/d ... dhamma.pdf
9.2. Born Or Arisen From Moisture - Samsedaja Patisandhi
Some sentient beings take rebirths in places where the fetus could cling. Larvae hatch and grow up in decaying organic matter. Queen Padumavati was conceived in a lotus blossom and Queen Veluvati in the hollow of bamboo plant. Cincamana who slandered the Buddha took rebirth in a tamarind tree. Most insects belong to this type of birth.

9.5 The Three Causes Of Birth - Patisandhi
Living beings born out of spontaneous birth and moisture birth have no parents at all.

These classifications are the science of the day, like the 4 classical elements rather than atoms. The proof that maggots are layed in eggs by flies was done by Loius Pasteur in the 1800s. The science Buddha is going by on physical phenomena is presumably from before even Aristotle and Plato's times.

The simple way to view it is that eggs so small you can't see them with the naked eye are not being counted as eggs in these ancient texts.
Andyqn
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:38 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by Andyqn »

johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:06 am These classifications are the science of the day, like the 4 classical elements rather than atoms. The proof that maggots are layed in eggs by flies was done by Loius Pasteur in the 1800s. The science Buddha is going by on physical phenomena is presumably from before even Aristotle and Plato's times.

The simple way to view it is that eggs so small you can't see them with the naked eye are not being counted as eggs in these ancient texts.
Thanks, what about the statement that these beings don’t have parents though?
justindesilva
Posts: 1417
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by justindesilva »

Andyqn wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:49 am
johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:06 am These classifications are the science of the day, like the 4 classical elements rather than atoms. The proof that maggots are layed in eggs by flies was done by Loius Pasteur in the 1800s. The science Buddha is going by on physical phenomena is presumably from before even Aristotle and Plato's times.

The simple way to view it is that eggs so small you can't see them with the naked eye are not being counted as eggs in these ancient texts.
Thanks, what about the statement that these beings don’t have parents though?
In the world of human beings mention of parents is the union of man and woman . In the world of micro organisms such mention of parents is not heard or mentioned subject to correction if I am wrong.
johnsmitty
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:19 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by johnsmitty »

Andyqn wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:49 am
johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:06 am These classifications are the science of the day, like the 4 classical elements rather than atoms. The proof that maggots are layed in eggs by flies was done by Loius Pasteur in the 1800s. The science Buddha is going by on physical phenomena is presumably from before even Aristotle and Plato's times.

The simple way to view it is that eggs so small you can't see them with the naked eye are not being counted as eggs in these ancient texts.
Thanks, what about the statement that these beings don’t have parents though?
They don't have parents in the raising sense. Flies don't care for their young. That's probably not what was meant though. They probably just thought that maggots spontaneously generate.
chownah
Posts: 9131
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by chownah »

johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:00 am They probably just thought that maggots spontaneously generate.
Does this "they" include the buddha?.....did the buddha probably think that maggots spontaneously generate?
chownah
justindesilva
Posts: 1417
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by justindesilva »

chownah wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:30 am
johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:00 am They probably just thought that maggots spontaneously generate.
Does this "they" include the buddha?.....did the buddha probably think that maggots spontaneously generate?
chownah
With reference to Paticca samuppada in application of jati we can realise that rebirth is reffered to beings born with mother and father as a union of ovum and sperm. Therefore as of buddhism we may refer to being born of parents. Buddhism is for sentient beings to follow Paticca samuppada and Arya ashtangika margaya and other births may be of importance for comparison.
chownah
Posts: 9131
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by chownah »

justindesilva wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:11 am
chownah wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:30 am
johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:00 am They probably just thought that maggots spontaneously generate.
Does this "they" include the buddha?.....did the buddha probably think that maggots spontaneously generate?
chownah
With reference to Paticca samuppada in application of jati we can realise that rebirth is reffered to beings born with mother and father as a union of ovum and sperm. Therefore as of buddhism we may refer to being born of parents. Buddhism is for sentient beings to follow Paticca samuppada and Arya ashtangika margaya and other births may be of importance for comparison.
I was asking the question of johnsmitty.....of course you are welcome to answer also but really you did not answer my question or at least I do not see that you have answered my question. If you want to answer my question I think that either a "yes" or "no" would be helpful and then perhaps followed by an explanation if you want.
chownah
justindesilva
Posts: 1417
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by justindesilva »

chownah wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:01 am
justindesilva wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:11 am
chownah wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:30 am
Does this "they" include the buddha?.....did the buddha probably think that maggots spontaneously generate?
chownah
With reference to Paticca samuppada in application of jati we can realise that rebirth is reffered to beings born with mother and father as a union of ovum and sperm. Therefore as of buddhism we may refer to being born of parents. Buddhism is for sentient beings to follow Paticca samuppada and Arya ashtangika margaya and other births may be of importance for comparison.
I was asking the question of johnsmitty.....of course you are welcome to answer also but really you did not answer my question or at least I do not see that you have answered my question. If you want to answer my question I think that either a "yes" or "no" would be helpful and then perhaps followed by an explanation if you want.
chownah
To be specific answer is no. Because Lord budda is loka vidu for one thing and he did not answer such questions unless it was under question to answer on anicca dukkha anatma.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 11068
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by Ceisiwr »

Andyqn wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:55 am Can anyone help me to clear a doubt I have in regards to moisture born beings. There was also a mention that these beings have no parents at all? From what I was able to gather though maggots, worms belong in this category. Scientifically though, these were proven to be hatching from eggs deposited by flies. So, these are actually egg born and have parents? If anyone could help me with this. Thanks!!!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/bi ... gy/maggot


https://www.piandeiciliegi.it/images/d ... dhamma.pdf
9.2. Born Or Arisen From Moisture - Samsedaja Patisandhi
Some sentient beings take rebirths in places where the fetus could cling. Larvae hatch and grow up in decaying organic matter. Queen Padumavati was conceived in a lotus blossom and Queen Veluvati in the hollow of bamboo plant. Cincamana who slandered the Buddha took rebirth in a tamarind tree. Most insects belong to this type of birth.

9.5 The Three Causes Of Birth - Patisandhi
Living beings born out of spontaneous birth and moisture birth have no parents at all.
It might help to know the Vedic origins of this idea:
"In the beginning, son, this world was simply what is existent—one only, without a second. Now, on this point some do say: 'In the beginning this world was simply what is non-existent—one only, without a second. And from what is non-existent was born what is existent.'
"But, son, how can that possibly be?" he continued. "How can what is existent be born from what is non-existent? On the contrary, son, in the beginning this world was simply what is existent—one only, without a second.
"And it thought to itself: 'Let me become many. Let me propagate myself.' It emitted heat. The heat thought to itself: 'Let me become many. Let me propagate myself.' It emitted water. Whenever it is hot, therefore, a man surely perspires; and thus it is from heat that water is produced. 4The water thought to itself: 'Let me be- come many. Let me propagate myself.' It emitted food. Whenever it rains, therefore, food becomes abundant; and thus it is from water that foodstuffs are produced.

"There are, as you can see, only three sources from which these creatures here originate: they are born from eggs, from living individuals, or from sprouts.
"Then that same deity thought to itself: 'Come now, why don't I establish the distinctions of name and appearance (nāmarūpe) by entering these three deities here with this living self (atman), and make each of them threefold.' So, that deity established the distinctions of name and appearance (nāmarūpe) by entering these three deities here with this living self (atmari), and made each of them threefold
Chāndogyopaniṣad

I doubt the ṛṣayaḥ were unaware that chicks had a mother and father. Likely it refers to their mode of birth. For moisture born beings, I would assume this applies to pond life or maggots. In a pre-scientific age this would make sense.
"Vinicchaye ṭhatvā sayaṃ pamāya,
Uddhaṃsa lokasmiṃ vivādameti;
Hitvāna sabbāni vinicchayāni,
Na medhagaṃ kubbati jantu loke”ti."


"Based on a firm opinion, taking himself as the measure,
he enters upon further disputes in the world.
Having abandoned all firm opinions,
a person does not create strife in the world"


Cūḷabyūha Sutta
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 9966
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:18 pm So, that deity established the distinctions of name and appearance (nāmarūpe) by entering these three deities here with this living self (atmari), and made each of them threefold
:goodpost: too bad many internet solipsist bloggers regard the above to be buddhism
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
johnsmitty
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:19 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by johnsmitty »

chownah wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:30 am
johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:00 am They probably just thought that maggots spontaneously generate.
Does this "they" include the buddha?.....did the buddha probably think that maggots spontaneously generate?
chownah
I don't even know what text the OP is referring to. I don't recall any text about moisture born beings in the suttas, but maybe I just glossed over it because I don't care about bugs. Its probably some Abhidhamma thing. As I agree with the Dhammapada in verse 126 about there being only 3 realms of rebirth (human, heaven, hell) I don't believe Buddha taught rebirth as animals, and therefore discussion of how certain types of bugs are born would have been quite unnecessary for him. The canonizers, however, have some odd ideas about bugs, like in the story they give us that Buddha told a farmer he couldn't eat the rice gruel he was offering because he had recited verses, and therefore the farmer should throw it into water where there are no bugs, and when he did it smoked. I don't believe Buddha himself had these kinds of weird ideas like that leftovers kill bugs (rice gruel would be eaten by the bugs, no? not hurt them, so why the need to dump it in water where there are no bugs? A weird pseudo-science idea of Buddhaghosa probably).
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 3788
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:18 pm
[...] in the beginning this world was simply what is existent—one only, without a second.
"And it thought to itself: 'Let me become many. Let me propagate myself.' It emitted heat. The heat thought to itself: 'Let me become many. Let me propagate myself.' It emitted water. Whenever it is hot, therefore, a man surely perspires; and thus it is from heat that water is produced. The water thought to itself: 'Let me become many. Let me propagate myself.'

[...]
Chāndogyopaniṣad
Emphasis added. Stories like this seem to be polemicized against in material like the Śālistambasūtra, a non-Theravādin text.
Therein, the earth-factor performs the function of supporting the seed. The water-factor waters the seed. The heat-factor matures the seed. The wind-factor brings out the seed. The space-factor performs the function of not obstructing the seed. Season performs the function of transforming the seed. Without these conditions, the development of the sprout from the seed does not occur. But when the objective earth-factor is not deficient, and likewise the water, heat, wind, space and season factors are not deficient, then from the coming together of all these, when the seed is ceasing the development of the sprout occurs.

It does not occur to the earth-factor, “I perform the function of supporting the seed”, and so on until: it does not occur to season, “I perform the function of transforming the seed”. Nor does it occur to the sprout, “I am born by way of these conditions". But still, when there are these conditions, when the seed is ceasing the development of the sprout occurs. And this sprout is not self-made, not made by another, not made by both, not made by God, not derived from prakrti, not founded upon a single principle, yet not arisen without cause. From the coming together of the earth, water, heat, wind, space, and season factors, when the seed is ceasing, the development of the sprout occurs.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
chownah
Posts: 9131
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by chownah »

justindesilva wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:56 pm
chownah wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:01 am
justindesilva wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:11 am

With reference to Paticca samuppada in application of jati we can realise that rebirth is reffered to beings born with mother and father as a union of ovum and sperm. Therefore as of buddhism we may refer to being born of parents. Buddhism is for sentient beings to follow Paticca samuppada and Arya ashtangika margaya and other births may be of importance for comparison.
I was asking the question of johnsmitty.....of course you are welcome to answer also but really you did not answer my question or at least I do not see that you have answered my question. If you want to answer my question I think that either a "yes" or "no" would be helpful and then perhaps followed by an explanation if you want.
chownah
To be specific answer is no. Because Lord budda is loka vidu for one thing and he did not answer such questions unless it was under question to answer on anicca dukkha anatma.
The original idea which started this discussion was brought by johnsmitty: "They probably just thought that maggots spontaneously generate."
To this statement chownah replied with the question: "Does this "they" include the buddha?.....did the buddha probably think that maggots spontaneously generate?"
Justindesilva answered my question with: "To be specific answer is no. Because Lord budda is loka vidu ..."

My reply to justindesilva (and anyone else listening) is that in the Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty mn117 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
There are spontaneously reborn beings
This assertion is presented as being right view with effluents.
It seems that the buddha probably thought that there are spontaneously reborn beings.....it does not rule out maggots. Perhaps the buddha thought that maggots are spontaneiously reborn.
chownah
johnsmitty
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:19 pm

Re: Regarding moisture born beings

Post by johnsmitty »

chownah wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:28 am
justindesilva wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:56 pm
chownah wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:01 am
I was asking the question of johnsmitty.....of course you are welcome to answer also but really you did not answer my question or at least I do not see that you have answered my question. If you want to answer my question I think that either a "yes" or "no" would be helpful and then perhaps followed by an explanation if you want.
chownah
To be specific answer is no. Because Lord budda is loka vidu for one thing and he did not answer such questions unless it was under question to answer on anicca dukkha anatma.
The original idea which started this discussion was brought by johnsmitty: "They probably just thought that maggots spontaneously generate."
To this statement chownah replied with the question: "Does this "they" include the buddha?.....did the buddha probably think that maggots spontaneously generate?"
Justindesilva answered my question with: "To be specific answer is no. Because Lord budda is loka vidu ..."

My reply to justindesilva (and anyone else listening) is that in the Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty mn117 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
There are spontaneously reborn beings
This assertion is presented as being right view with effluents.
It seems that the buddha probably thought that there are spontaneously reborn beings.....it does not rule out maggots. Perhaps the buddha thought that maggots are spontaneiously reborn.
chownah
I think spontaneously reborn beings in that sutta means beings born in to heavens where there is no sexuality so they can only spontaneously appear up there rather than be "born" from parents. But someone might have misinterpreted it as referring to bugs and came up with bugs spontaneously generating due to the obsession with bugs that some of them seemed to have back there.
Post Reply