suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (

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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:53 pm You were doing well until this, which is what I was opposing. No need to insert gross & rough thinking where it does not belong.
Again, MN 20 would beg to differ. This is so dumb it's ridiculous. You know what the problem is? You're still subdividing what I call the first jhana into access concentration and absorption, which I don't do and for various reasons I argue against.
The texts are a little contradictory when it comes to matching up the Jhānā with other worlds. For example:

“There are beings who are diverse in body but identical in perception, such as the gods of the Brahma-order who are generated through the first (jhāna). This is the second station for consciousness." - DN 15

Here the 1st Jhāna is said to be of one perception only, and those born in the Brahma-order are of the same. Those then who obtain the 1st Jhāna will be reborn in the Brahma worlds, which matches their attainment. However, gods from the Brahma-order are said to descend, or talk to the Buddha and all manner of things that aren't compatible with being constantly in 1 perception. As I say, the texts aren't all that clear. I'm somewhat sceptical of most of the cosmology myself, although not rebirth itself.
Yeah maybe not the best rabbit hole to go down with this discussion.
That reads more like abandoning a hindrance, which of course is prior to the actual meditation.

It shows that normal thinking tires the mental body. The vitakka-vicāra it then mentions in the Jhāna pericope are the intentions. The sutta supports the claim that normal discursive thought, which is harsh and disturbing, are incompatible with any Jhānā.
Maybe we're not on the same page here as to what "discursive thought" is. When I say "verbal thinking", I'm meaning vitakka-vicara that uses words. For example, we could have the thought "this is impermanent" and it's verbal and I would argue that it meets our purposes. Or conversely you could be having a hard time getting the mind to settle on the breath, so you say to yourself, "okay let's stay with the breath, it's nice, it's peaceful" and that helps our purpose. Further more, you could strongly with the object and are in the process of refining the perception of it to be able to apprehend it in the mind with stability, all the while, it's extraordinarily beautiful so you allow and encourage the mind to indulge it and pay attention to it. That last one, could we not think "ah this is is peaceful, and gets the mind to settle down if we pay attention to it and allow it to soak in and spread all over our consciousness"? My argument is yes, but at that point, you're probably not going to because it's most likely going to be perceived as loud and a waste of energy.

But you could. As long as those jhana factors are strong and thinking a verbal thought doesn't damage but rather helps it, then I see no reason not to. Again though, as you pointed out, in most situations, it's unnecessary and somewhat course. My argument is that there are definitely situations in which you can and should use a verbal thought to enact the bathman simile.
Dhammavicaya is insight into dhammas, which are beneficial and which are not and so on. You can't gain insight without discursive thinking, and you can't have discursive thinking without vicaya (outside of the Jhāna pericope). Even by the Jhāna-lite standard, insight is impossible from the 2nd Jhāna onwards since the very dhamma required for such discursive thought has gone. The bear constituents of nāmakāya on its own is not enough for insight. If it were there would be insight in nevasaññānāsaññāyatana, which would be rather odd don't you think?
Again, please read what I actually said. Dhammavicaya, vitakka-vicara, and vipassana and not the same thing nor are they mutually exclusive.
What you're describing is true and you must have discursive thinking to set it up but once it's associated with the stable and pervasive pleasure of jhana, vitakka-vicara is no longer required to sustain it. This may be a little confusing, but the action of attending to the object and returning to it with vitakka-vicara is actually what's doing this, not necassarily thinking "I will set up the proper perceptions necessary to attain absorption", (although this can be of use). No it generally occurs more on a visceral level as the proper perceptions necessary for jhana become associated with pleasure, the calm and equanimity, then stillness. Those perceptions definitely have to happen in order to stay in jhana, but we don't have to split our attention with the object to be with them, rather it's staying with the object that actually sets up and perpetuates those perceptions. That's vipassana and it is aided by recollecting the three marks, etc. Am I making sense?

What you're talking about as willed dhammavicaya is a little bit different. If I were to place it, it would go best after the mind is concentrated but it also fits in with vitakka-vicara as discursive thought. It's better to do it with a very concentrated mind, and as you've pointed out, between partaking of distinction to apply insight into the jhana factors and set intention to abandon them. Or conversely, it can be used to settle a distracted mind or to further settle a mind that is partially settled. That's all willed though.
You just had insight outside of Jhāna via dhamma-vicaya and now you want it inside too when there can literally be no dhamma-vicaya? You can't have your cake and eat it. To have any insight requires discursive thought. This is impossible in any Jhāna, or even from the 2nd Jhāna onwards for the Jhāna-lite crowd, because the dhammas which are necessary conditions for it do not exist in those states. The nāmakāya on it's own is not enough.
Please listen. Dhammavicaya is willed, vipassana is not necessarily so. Insight does not require discursive thought apart from setting up the conditions the first jhana. In the second, it's still happening but our job is not to "tend" to anything, much less that process. It's there whether we pay attention to it or not, and paying attention to the object is what strengthens it.

It's also of note, this discussion is also purely conceptual-mechanical and will have absolutely no bearing on how it's practiced. To practice, pay attention to the breath and if you mind wanders, bring it back to the breath. let go, relax. If you're doing that, then in a grossly oversimplified way, you have vipassana.
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:11 pm
Pondera wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:01 pm
That is not my experience. In my experience the three marks reveal themselves as inherent and ever present in the skhandas. When entering jhana, the skhandas do not first come into being - only to later come out of being. It is at death that the skhandas come apart.
This is quite odd since the aggregates are always present in any sense experience. They rise and fall many times a day.
The Buddha has said that one would be better off considering the body as self because at least the body (ie. form) lasts up to one hundred years.

So, with regard to form, at least, the point I am making is clear. One must and should be able to develop samadhi and discernment to such a degree that he can view the three marks in an object which (for the time being) will subsist longer than a moment (eg. up to one hundred years).

You should (for example) be able to look at a rock and see the marks of existence in that rock.

Heretics have viewed forty thousand previous life times and stated that “the soul is unchanging. As steady as a mountain”. And for that reason, they posit a self.

Disenchantment allows us to look at anything which persists through time with discernment.

If the only thing that revealed the three marks was a fluctuating, ever rising, ever falling phenomenon - what would be the use of it?

But, so you say. How are the skhandas more obviously impermanent by virtue of entering and emerging from jhana? What attribute of the jhana experience points out the rise and fall of the skhandas so much more than if jhana had not been achieved?
That seems like an odd argument, considering that one experiences the above defined “discernment” during cessation...

[7] "And what is the perception of cessation? There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, cessation, Unbinding.' This is called the perception of cessation.
Since nibbāna is a stilled state par excellence, and since in cessation there isn't even an experience of any conditioned dhammas, I struggle to see how you can think such a state is filled with said discursive thinking? In your view nibbāna seems quite ordinary. Just thoughts we have about the world, it seems.
Discursive thinking? I said “discernment”. It is obvious in many suttas that “discernment” occurs with cessation. For example, the suttas constantly repeat “And he sees with discernment: the task is done. The burden is laid down. This will be my last becoming.”

But so you say. How in fact does one discern that one has reached Nibbana?
There is also nothing in AN 10.60 that says one cannot discern while in jhana. A sutta on Post jhana reflection does not imply an impossibility on mid-jhana discernment.
As previous suttas I posted showed, the Jhānā are tranquil states and vitakka-vicāra are intentions.
Careful. Now you are dabbling in Abhidhamma. Later in this post you vilify Abhidhamma for the sake of dismissing a certain MN 111.

But so you say.
So far, hard to see how any discernment can occur. But, lets say the opposite is true. The Jhānā are not stilled states and vitakka-vicāra mean discursive thinking. On this model insight could occur in the 1st Jhāna, but when we get to the 2nd Jhāna onwards the model breaks down. If vicāra means normal thinking and this is abandoned at the 2nd Jhāna then dhamma-vicaya cannot occur, which means no insight there onwards. A bit strange, given that the Buddha taught the 4 Jhānā and the Jhāna-lite person wants to have insight in every Jhāna step of the way.
The rupa jhanas and the arupa jhanas (up to nothingness) are “perception attainments”. One need not think discursively in order to perceive.
Again, and this is just a personal observation - the skhandas reveal their three marks as an inherent feature. Not as something to be discerned after their disintegration. In fact, if we had to wait for the skhandas to disintegrate before achieving insight, it would already be to late (ie. we would be dead).
The aggregates rise and fall constantly.
Some persist for 100 years. And the marks can still be seen in them at any moment.
Do you think that the body holds on to pain? Do you think that by letting go of that pain, one might feel pleasure?
The physical body does not experience pain. The nāmakāya does.
In that case, does the nāmakāya (whatever that is :tongue: ) hold on to pain? And do you think that if it let go of pain, it would feel pleasure?
How does stillness lead to “knowledge and vision of things as they really are”?
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


AN 2.31
Serenity is a feeling. Not an absence of thought.

Insight is a penetrating perception. Not a stillness of thoughts.

In fact stillness, steadiness, and solidity are all the same. Focus is steady thought, solid thought, still thought. Discursive thinking becomes focused thinking. Thinking does not disappear, as you seem to suggest. Discernment is only made possible when the namakaya lets go of painful feelings. It is at this point that it can review its own nature and see the marks of existence.
What do you think accomplishes a more penetrating insight? Loose concentration? Or acute concentration?
Insight occurs after Jhāna.
And, why was that again? Briefly, for the sake of a solid discussion.
Inconvenient, too :coffee:
I'm not in the business of dismissing suttas because they are "inconvenient". MN 111 has all the hallmarks of some later editing, either to bring it in line with the Abhidhamma or being proto-Abhidhamma itself.
Sure. And how many other suttas would you say bare those same hallmarks? Has anyone made a list? That would be an interesting read? :tongue:
My concerns were stated here: viewtopic.php?p=620482#p620482
I believe I have addressed all of those by now.
I’ll simplify the problem I have with your dismissal of rapture born of joy (as jhanic rapture. In fact, before I side tracked this discussion, that was my primary beef 🥩 with you).

You have said earlier.
Piti and sukha arise before samadhi in mindfulness of breathing. The piti and sukha in Jhāna are said to be born from seclusion. They are of a different character.
This implies that you know nothing about the development of samadhi.

ALL samma samadhi develop with the prior development of piti and sukha.

But, so you say. How in fact does jhanic piti and sukha arise otherwise?
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

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pitithefool wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:34 pm ...
It looks as though we’ve scared off the “ Vitakka and vicara” nuts for now. :tongue: Maybe they’re just sleeping. :coffee:
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Pondera wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:45 pm
pitithefool wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:34 pm ...
It looks as though we’ve scared off the “ Vitakka and vicara” nuts for now. :tongue: Maybe they’re just sleeping. :coffee:
Ceisiwr's not one to give up so easily. His explanations are usually pretty on-point but he's conjoined at the hip with a certain view point and refuses to entertain the validity of others' views.

One of the things that gets me is that if we had to leave every jhana to perform insight on it, then it would have said so. In fact, there are attainments that insight cannot happen in and the canon explicitly states so, for example:
MN 111:
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
It should be noted that in that same sutta, none of the attainments up to the dimension of nothingness are stated to require emergence from the in order to practice insight on them, only neither perception nor non-perception and nirodha samapatti.

If the Buddha wanted to specify that insight cannot happen within an attainment, he would have. And not only that, he did, but not for any attainment prior to neither perception nor non-perception.

AN 9.36 reiterates this point and specifically leaves out neither perception nor non-perception and cessation when instructing. Insight cannot be done while in those two attainments, and the suttas actually say so explicitly. If it couldn't be done in the other attainments, it would have also stated so explicitly as it has done in these two suttas.

My fear is that some people may be rejecting these two suttas as non-canonical and that it's because of confirmation bias and not anything else. If we believe something very firmly, we will willfully ignore or discount evidence to the contrary.
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

pitithefool wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:26 pm
Pondera wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:45 pm
pitithefool wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:34 pm ...
It looks as though we’ve scared off the “ Vitakka and vicara” nuts for now. :tongue: Maybe they’re just sleeping. :coffee:
Ceisiwr's not one to give up so easily. His explanations are usually pretty on-point but he's conjoined at the hip with a certain view point and refuses to entertain the validity of others' views.
I do enjoy our back and forth. Minimal rambling. No insults. As you say, he is very stubborn, and informed.
One of the things that gets me is that if we had to leave every jhana to perform insight on it, then it would have said so. In fact, there are attainments that insight cannot happen in and the canon explicitly states so, for example:
MN 111:
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: ‘So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
It should be noted that in that same sutta, none of the attainments up to the dimension of nothingness are stated to require emergence from the in order to practice insight on them, only neither perception nor non-perception and nirodha samapatti.
Very observant of you. I might differ in one way. Notice also:
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]
So, it is like you say. When the Buddha wants us to emerge and regard “past qualities” he states it (or Sariputta does through the Buddha in this case)

In particular, there is no way to dissect the attainment of neither perception nor non perception during the attainment. It is too wild :tongue:

Dissection of qualities is the theme of this sutta. But insight is also of importance. And I find this interesting.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
So, quite easy to see. His fermentations come to an end BEFORE emerging from the attainment. This means that the attainment surpasses any need for insight and simply cuts to the root of Unbinding.

If you notice my signature, it says that “cessation of perception and feeling is a cessation attainment”.

That is where I would possibly differ. But I appreciate how clearly you point out the Buddha’s intentions. And I don’t think we differ too much. Again. I don’t believe cessation of perception and feeling can be described while in it. But I do believe that the process of insight occurs very rapidly DURING the attainment

If the Buddha wanted to specify that insight cannot happen within an attainment, he would have. And not only that, he did, but not for any attainment prior to neither perception nor non-perception.
Precisely. But guess what? This is a fake sutta :tongue:

AN 9.36 reiterates this point and specifically leaves out neither perception nor non-perception and cessation when instructing. Insight cannot be done while in those two attainments, and the suttas actually say so explicitly. If it couldn't be done in the other attainments, it would have also stated so explicitly as it has done in these two suttas.
Indeed. I know this sutta well. It describes the three marks of the skhandas in fine detail.

But I have butted heads with our opponent on this matter. He has deconstructed the Pali and maintains that the sentence “He regards whatever phenomenon there is there” - as not necessarily implying a present insight. I think it is quite natural to assume the contrary.

In fact I know it is. I practice the tenants of the Upanisa Sutta 8 hours a day, from morning until the afternoon. And then again before falling asleep.
My fear is that some people may be rejecting these two suttas as non-canonical and that it's because of confirmation bias and not anything else. If we believe something very firmly, we will willfully ignore or discount evidence to the contrary.
It’s a result of Buddhaghosa Kasina and Nimitta meditation. Developments which come in the medieval times. Thousands of years after the EBT’s.

I have nothing against nimitta. I have had them in dreams and also on the verge of falling asleep.

They DO produce rapture and pleasure. But, as I joked, they’re only good for a dry orgasm so intense that one loses consciousness.

On the contrary, the obsession with the nimitta as the process by which samma samadhi comes about totally ignores what is said in the Upanisa Sutta. To wit - that rapture is the prerequisite for tranquility; that tranquility is the prerequisite for sukha; and that sukha is the prerequisite for samadhi.

Very simple. But once you choose a path it is difficult to let go of it.

Sad, in that producing and maintaining the nimitta is so hard; whereas EBT jhana is not actually that difficult with the right amount of luck and insight.

Anyway, friend - it is good to have a companion in this line of argument.

🧐
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Srilankaputra »

pitithefool wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:26 pm If we believe something very firmly, we will willfully ignore or discount evidence to the contrary.
:goodpost:

Please note, this is not meant as a personal attack. A call to heedfulness may be.

There are subtler roots to confirmation bias, harder to see, other than blind belief.

Lack of depth of experience. And deeply appropriating ones level of experience in terms of tanha-ditthi-māna. This is called a sickness born of medicine, hard to remove.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Srilankaputra wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 1:07 am
pitithefool wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:26 pm If we believe something very firmly, we will willfully ignore or discount evidence to the contrary.
:goodpost:

Please note, this is not meant as a personal attack. A call to heedfulness may be.

There are subtler roots to confirmation bias, harder to see, other than blind belief.

Lack of depth of experience. And deeply appropriating ones level of experience in terms of tanha-ditthi-māna. This is called a sickness born of medicine, hard to remove.
Before I stick my foot in my mouth, what exactly do you mean by this?
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Pondera wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 12:33 am I do enjoy our back and forth. Minimal rambling. No insults. As you say, he is very stubborn, and informed.
Thank you and likewise.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
So, quite easy to see. His fermentations come to an end BEFORE emerging from the attainment. This means that the attainment surpasses any need for insight and simply cuts to the root of Unbinding.

If you notice my signature, it says that “cessation of perception and feeling is a cessation attainment”.

That is where I would possibly differ. But I appreciate how clearly you point out the Buddha’s intentions. And I don’t think we differ too much. Again. I don’t believe cessation of perception and feeling can be described while in it. But I do believe that the process of insight occurs very rapidly DURING the attainment
Okay so i don't mean to gloss over that last paragraph so much, just know that I agree with your points and thank you.

This could be a point of contention, and I might actually take the position that this sutta describes Sariputta's attainment of arahantship and that there seems to be some variation among the suttas about how that actually happens in different situations. Also, I would go out on a limb here to point out that the process described in that section is not really vipassana or insight but panna, which is a little different and sortof implies more of a "appropriate doing" rather than seeing. The doing in this case is the abandonment of the asavas appropriate to what is "seen". Vipassana means literally special or super seeing. Panna is wisdom in terms of the four noble truths, which can be simplified roughly to suffering and what to do about it. I could be wrong though, and I'd love to hear your input.

AN 9.36, again (among others that use a similar pericope)
"Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.
This statement is repeated directly after the archer simile for every jhana and the first three formless attainments. It looks to me like it explicitly states that unbinding can be had from any one of these attainments if someone has sharp insight. I'm a little hesitant to push it though. What are your thoughts?
But I have butted heads with our opponent on this matter. He has deconstructed the Pali and maintains that the sentence “He regards whatever phenomenon there is there” - as not necessarily implying a present insight. I think it is quite natural to assume the contrary.

In fact I know it is. I practice the tenants of the Upanisa Sutta 8 hours a day, from morning until the afternoon. And then again before falling asleep.
If you take insight to be the same as vitakka-vicara, then at best insight could only be performed in the first jhana. However, it's all over the canon that insight is more of a perceptual occurrence than a willed, thinking one.
It’s a result of Buddhaghosa Kasina and Nimitta meditation. Developments which come in the medieval times. Thousands of years after the EBT’s.

I have nothing against nimitta. I have had them in dreams and also on the verge of falling asleep.

They DO produce rapture and pleasure. But, as I joked, they’re only good for a dry orgasm so intense that one loses consciousness.

On the contrary, the obsession with the nimitta as the process by which samma samadhi comes about totally ignores what is said in the Upanisa Sutta. To wit - that rapture is the prerequisite for tranquility; that tranquility is the prerequisite for sukha; and that sukha is the prerequisite for samadhi.

Very simple. But once you choose a path it is difficult to let go of it.

Sad, in that producing and maintaining the nimitta is so hard; whereas EBT jhana is not actually that difficult with the right amount of luck and insight.

Anyway, friend - it is good to have a companion in this line of argument.

🧐
Haha likewise! ;)

So I have a weird thing about the nimitta, and I really think it's tragicly misunderstood and misinterpreted by teachers, and that's why it has a bit of a bad rep.

If you read the Visuddhimagga, there's a section describing what the nimitta is and what Buddhagosa says is that it's sort of a thing that's reminiscent of the feeling of what you're going. I;m sure that made no sense. He talks about monks describing suttas, saying something like "this suttas is like the shade of a large mango tree". Not an accurate quote but you kindof get the point. You can sit down in breath meditation and you get to a point where you're kindof saying "oh wow it's like I'm on a cloud or on the top of a mountain". From what I can tell, that's what's meant by nimitta, and it's not visual but perceptual. Ceisiwr would probably do a better job than me at describing this.

Now we have this image in our heads of "you're gonna see a bright white light and you're going to merge with it, and it's going to be amazing, and there's NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP IT". Which is a little misleading. If you imagine what it feels like to merge with that light, you might be on the right track, but that sign might not resonate with you. I've heard things like "it's like flying" or "it's like being submerged in cool water" and so on, but really it's different for everyone and you won't know exactly what it is until becoming familiar with meditation. That's why it's called the learning sign. I don't think it's too common to actually experience a bright light, but the experience of absorption would be described as similar in idea to it.

Annd here come the flying monkeys to cut my head off for saying all of that lol.
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ratnakar »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:00 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:36 pm ...
Sure:
[THE TWO KINDS OF CONCENTRATION]
32. Now, concentration is of two kinds, that is to say, access concentration and absorption concentration: the mind becomes concentrated in two ways, that is, on the plane of access and on the plane of obtainment. Herein, the mind becomes concentrated on the plane of access by the abandonment of the hindrances, and on the plane of obtainment by the manifestation of the jhána factors.
33. The difference between the two kinds of concentration is this. The factors are not strong in access. It is because they are not strong that when access has arisen, the mind now makes the sign its object and now re-enters the life-continuum, just as when a young child is lifted up and stood on its feet, it repeatedly falls down on the ground. But the factors are strong in absorption. It is because they are strong that when absorption concentration has arisen, the mind, having once interrupted the flow of the life-continuum, carries on with a stream of profitable impulsion for a whole night and for a whole day, just as a healthy man, after rising from his seat, could stand for a whole day.
CHAPTER IV - The Earth Kasina

The Visuddhimagga seems to oscillate between the words "abandoned" and "suppressed" somewhat, so it's not all to clear to me if there is a distinction or not there.
That's interesting

and what do you think did buddha refer to the below concentration as access or jhana ?
Sn46.38
When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple listens to the Dhamma with eager ears, attending to it as a matter of vital concern, directing his whole mind to it, on that occasion the five hindrances are not present in him; on that occasion the seven factors of enlightenment go to fulfilment by development.
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

pitithefool wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 2:12 am
Pondera wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 12:33 am I do enjoy our back and forth. Minimal rambling. No insults. As you say, he is very stubborn, and informed.
Thank you and likewise.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
So, quite easy to see. His fermentations come to an end BEFORE emerging from the attainment. This means that the attainment surpasses any need for insight and simply cuts to the root of Unbinding.

If you notice my signature, it says that “cessation of perception and feeling is a cessation attainment”.

That is where I would possibly differ. But I appreciate how clearly you point out the Buddha’s intentions. And I don’t think we differ too much. Again. I don’t believe cessation of perception and feeling can be described while in it. But I do believe that the process of insight occurs very rapidly DURING the attainment
Okay so i don't mean to gloss over that last paragraph so much, just know that I agree with your points and thank you.

This could be a point of contention, and I might actually take the position that this sutta describes Sariputta's attainment of arahantship and that there seems to be some variation among the suttas about how that actually happens in different situations. Also, I would go out on a limb here to point out that the process described in that section is not really vipassana or insight but panna, which is a little different and sortof implies more of a "appropriate doing" rather than seeing. The doing in this case is the abandonment of the asavas appropriate to what is "seen". Vipassana means literally special or super seeing. Panna is wisdom in terms of the four noble truths, which can be simplified roughly to suffering and what to do about it. I could be wrong though, and I'd love to hear your input.
Sariputta was one of a kind. A superior analyst. The Buddha was a more well rounded kind of genius. Maha Moggallana was another genius in an emotional way.

And, indeed - they practiced according to their abilities. I like to break things down. I like to understand - and my short coming is to just let things happen without overthinking them.


AN 9.36, again (among others that use a similar pericope)
"Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.
This statement is repeated directly after the archer simile for every jhana and the first three formless attainments. It looks to me like it explicitly states that unbinding can be had from any one of these attainments if someone has sharp insight. I'm a little hesitant to push it though. What are your thoughts?
The dhamma-delight is the sukha of the jhana. I can see how a familiarity with it would lead to a rebirth in a world where that is the norm.

Interestingly, I had a dream two nights ago where I ascended to heaven with a group of friends. Oddly, my participation was the deal breaker for the ascension. If I had not acted in a particular way, the ascension would not have been initiated by my close friend (who was the primary “knower” of things heavenly). What was heaven like? Colours were starker. Images were HD + more. People were happy. Maybe it wasn’t the highest heaven. But that dream affected me deeply. It taught me that a lot of people we might otherwise underestimate are heaven bound. The prospect of Hell is not as prominent as we should think.
But I have butted heads with our opponent on this matter. He has deconstructed the Pali and maintains that the sentence “He regards whatever phenomenon there is there” - as not necessarily implying a present insight. I think it is quite natural to assume the contrary.

In fact I know it is. I practice the tenants of the Upanisa Sutta 8 hours a day, from morning until the afternoon. And then again before falling asleep.
If you take insight to be the same as vitakka-vicara, then at best insight could only be performed in the first jhana. However, it's all over the canon that insight is more of a perceptual occurrence than a willed, thinking one.
It’s a result of Buddhaghosa Kasina and Nimitta meditation. Developments which come in the medieval times. Thousands of years after the EBT’s.

I have nothing against nimitta. I have had them in dreams and also on the verge of falling asleep.

They DO produce rapture and pleasure. But, as I joked, they’re only good for a dry orgasm so intense that one loses consciousness.

On the contrary, the obsession with the nimitta as the process by which samma samadhi comes about totally ignores what is said in the Upanisa Sutta. To wit - that rapture is the prerequisite for tranquility; that tranquility is the prerequisite for sukha; and that sukha is the prerequisite for samadhi.

Very simple. But once you choose a path it is difficult to let go of it.

Sad, in that producing and maintaining the nimitta is so hard; whereas EBT jhana is not actually that difficult with the right amount of luck and insight.

Anyway, friend - it is good to have a companion in this line of argument.

🧐
Haha likewise! ;)

So I have a weird thing about the nimitta, and I really think it's tragicly misunderstood and misinterpreted by teachers, and that's why it has a bit of a bad rep.

If you read the Visuddhimagga, there's a section describing what the nimitta is and what Buddhagosa says is that it's sort of a thing that's reminiscent of the feeling of what you're going. I;m sure that made no sense. He talks about monks describing suttas, saying something like "this suttas is like the shade of a large mango tree". Not an accurate quote but you kindof get the point. You can sit down in breath meditation and you get to a point where you're kindof saying "oh wow it's like I'm on a cloud or on the top of a mountain". From what I can tell, that's what's meant by nimitta, and it's not visual but perceptual. Ceisiwr would probably do a better job than me at describing this.
Yes. We’re all friends here at dhammawheel. Let’s let Ceisiwr chime in :clap:
Now we have this image in our heads of "you're gonna see a bright white light and you're going to merge with it, and it's going to be amazing, and there's NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP IT". Which is a little misleading. If you imagine what it feels like to merge with that light, you might be on the right track, but that sign might not resonate with you. I've heard things like "it's like flying" or "it's like being submerged in cool water" and so on, but really it's different for everyone and you won't know exactly what it is until becoming familiar with meditation. That's why it's called the learning sign. I don't think it's too common to actually experience a bright light, but the experience of absorption would be described as similar in idea to it.

Annd here come the flying monkeys to cut my head off for saying all of that lol.
:tongue:
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:28 pm These are basic words that you should really know
No. Not at all. The Buddha never used it. There were no "periscopes" when the Buddha was alive.

As for your recent postings on this forum, they appear to lack Theravada content. Theravada instructs its followers to control the mind.

:focus:
Ratnakar wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 2:46 amand what do you think did buddha refer to the below concentration as access or jhana ?
The suttas explicitly say the stream-enterer and once-returner have not fully developed samadhi. That sutta (AN 3.86) appears to answer your question. :smile:
Ratnakar wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 2:46 am
When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple listens to the Dhamma with eager ears, attending to it as a matter of vital concern, directing his whole mind to it, on that occasion the five hindrances are not present in him; on that occasion the seven factors of enlightenment go to fulfilment by development.
Anapanasati Sutta refers to supramundane development of Satipatthana and Factors of Enlightenment with awareness of breathing at every stage. This awareness or knowing of breathing cannot be jhana; even though the Anapanasati Sutta says it includes "training" in concentration & even though the five hindrances must be generally absent.

The fact the Satipatthana & Anapanasati Suttas include "cittanupassana" not found in the jhana teachings shows Satipatthana & Anapanasati Suttas are not about jhana because the jhana teachings never include experiencing whether the citta is defiled or not. Even though the mind can have neighbourhood concentration & be free from the five hindrances, at stage 9 of Anapanasati, such a mind can experience, with samadhi, residual underlying tendencies of defilements.

Note: the term "fulfilment" does not appear to mean "Arahantship". It appears to merely mean the Seven Factors of Enlightenment are operational & performing their gradual task.

In short, there is the impression u believe as soon as the five hindrances are absent, that is jhana. This appears to be an overliteral interpretation of the suttas. U appear to believe in Instant Jhana, similar to Instant Coffee. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ratnakar »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:58 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:28 pm These are basic words that you should really know
No. Not at all. The Buddha never used it. There were no "periscopes" when the Buddha was alive.

As for your recent postings on this forum, they appear to lack Theravada content. Theravada instructs its followers to control the mind.

:focus:
Ratnakar wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 2:46 amand what do you think did buddha refer to the below concentration as access or jhana ?
The suttas explicitly say the stream-enterer and once-returner have not fully developed samadhi. That sutta (AN 3.86) appears to answer your question. :smile:
Ratnakar wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 2:46 am
When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple listens to the Dhamma with eager ears, attending to it as a matter of vital concern, directing his whole mind to it, on that occasion the five hindrances are not present in him; on that occasion the seven factors of enlightenment go to fulfilment by development.
Anapanasati Sutta refers to supramundane development of Satipatthana and Factors of Enlightenment with awareness of breathing at every stage. This awareness or knowing of breathing cannot be jhana; even though the Anapanasati Sutta says it includes "training" in concentration & even though the five hindrances must be generally absent.

The fact the Satipatthana & Anapanasati Suttas include "cittanupassana" not found in the jhana teachings shows Satipatthana & Anapanasati Suttas are not about jhana because the jhana teachings never include experiencing whether the citta is defiled or not. Even though the mind can have neighbourhood concentration & be free from the five hindrances, at stage 9 of Anapanasati, such a mind can experience, with samadhi, residual underlying tendencies of defilements.

Note: the term "fulfilment" does not appear to mean "Arahantship". It appears to merely mean the Seven Factors of Enlightenment are operational & performing their gradual task.

In short, there is the impression u believe as soon as the five hindrances are absent, that is jhana. This appears to be an overliteral interpretation of the suttas. U appear to believe in Instant Jhana, similar to Instant Coffee. :smile:
So you argued that it's not jhana but access that buddha was talking about, didn't you?

Do you think that access alone is enough to attain enlightenment ?
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:58 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:28 pmThese are basic words that you should really know
No. Not at all. The Buddha never used it. There were no "periscopes" when the Buddha was alive.
It's not a periscope, DooDoot. Don't be ignorant. You've introduced "periscopes" into this thread and it is not a welcome addition.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by DooDoot »

Ratnakar wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 2:46 am So you argued that it's not jhana but access that buddha was talking about, didn't you?

Do you think that access alone is enough to attain enlightenment ?
I recall referring to stream-entry and once-returner, which are levels of enlightenment based on access concentration. But they are not full enlightenment. Jhana is obviously required for full enlightenment. Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ratnakar »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:42 am
Ratnakar wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 2:46 am So you argued that it's not jhana but access that buddha was talking about, didn't you?

Do you think that access alone is enough to attain enlightenment ?
I recall referring to stream-entry and once-returner, which are levels of enlightenment based on access concentration. But they are not full enlightenment. Jhana is obviously required for full enlightenment. Regards
So where does one do vippassana in access or in jhana ?
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