Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by DNS »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:41 pm I think yes im not sure about who it is.. but general Siha good?
Yes, according to the Sutta account, he was a stream-entrant.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by confusedlayman »

DNS wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:43 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:41 pm I think yes im not sure about who it is.. but general Siha good?
Yes, according to the Sutta account, he was a stream-entrant.
but did he help in war that lead to mass murder? if so how can he be stream entry?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by DNS »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:44 pm but did he help in war that lead to mass murder? if so how can he be stream entry?
Maybe his good kamma (actions) outweighed the negative?
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by confusedlayman »

DNS wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:47 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:44 pm but did he help in war that lead to mass murder? if so how can he be stream entry?
Maybe his good kamma (actions) outweighed the negative?
maybe
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Dhammanando »

DNS wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:07 pm Ven. Dhammika:

The theory of the importance of the last thought moment is not mentioned in any of the Buddha's discourses or even in the later Abhidhamma Piñaka. The Tipiñaka records many occasions where the Buddha counselled people who were either dying or critically ill. If the last thought is really crucial to one's destiny one would expect such occasions to be the most appropriate time for him to mention it, and yet he never did.
I think the very fact that the Buddha did make a point of visiting the dying, or sending an arahant disciple to visit them, or, at the very least, sending them some instruction via messenger, suggests that he did regard the time of death as an especially crucial time.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

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confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:44 pm but did he help in war that lead to mass murder?
No, there's no mention of any such thing. When the Jains were badmouthing Sīha after he transferred his allegiance from Mahāvīra to the Buddha the worst they could come up with was that he'd had an ox slaughtered to feed the Sangha. Even that charge was baseless.

http://aimwell.org/DPPN/siha.html
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

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Apparently, undertaking right view at the time of death can be helpful in attaining a good rebirth. This is not the same as saying the last thought moment is decisive but it’s heading in that direction.
Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who killed living creatures … and had wrong view, and who is reborn in a heavenly realm. They must have done a good deed to be experienced as pleasant either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook right view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. But anyone here who kills living creatures … and has wrong view experiences the result of that in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.

https://suttacentral.net/mn136/en/sujato
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Dhammanando »

Polar Bear wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:32 am Apparently, undertaking right view at the time of death can be helpful in attaining a good rebirth. This is not the same as saying the last thought moment is decisive but it’s heading in that direction.
Yes. There's also the Yodhajīvasutta, with the Buddha's repudiation of the Indian version of the Norse Valhalla conception.
Then Yodhajiva the headman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that."

A second time... A third time Yodhajiva the headman said: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist.' If others then strike him down & slay him while he is thus striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the hell called the realm of those slain in battle. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Rahula »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:29 pm I think the very fact that the Buddha did make a point of visiting the dying, or sending an arahant disciple to visit them, or, at the very least, sending them some instruction via messenger, suggests that he did regard the time of death as an especially crucial time.
Please let me know if you can remember any such moments mentioned in suttas.

Also, is the fact that some people reached Nibbana at death moment, related to cuti citta?
Like the king Suddodana, Sarakani etc.

If someone can control their mind and not get cling to any thought at the last moment, isn't that achieving Nibbana?

Isn't the problem layperson has is the inability to control last thought moment? Thus he cling to a thought at last moment and go for another birth?
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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