Question about pedagogy

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dreicht
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Question about pedagogy

Post by dreicht »

Apologies if this is not the correct place to post.

I've been interested in and engaged with Buddhism on and off over the course of my life. Reflecting on this recently, I've realized that rarely have I understood much of what I have read or heard. Many of the writings about Buddhism that I've encountered seem to either focus on very small sections of Buddhism, books about specific suttas or about mindfulness or whatnot, or approach Buddhism like a theoretical and somewhat abstract exercise (e.g. These are the Four Noble truths, this is dependent arising) without diving too deep into the connections between all of these elements. Books like What the Buddha Taught feel somewhat toothless(?) in the sense that they give you all the elements but don't show any of the connections. Whereas books like Thanissaro Bhikkhu's on rebirth helps me to see the connections between elements of the teaching (oh, that's what DO actually means... of that's how my negative feelings, what motivates me to find a solution, can be connected to DO...).

Has this been other peoples' experience? I do not mean to insult any specific author, of course. And perhaps the dhamma is too complicated to present in all its entirety at once, particularly when many of us are so indoctrinated in other ways of thinking (materialism, scientism, a strong sense of self, etc.). I am grateful for all resources and efforts and perhaps the issue is less with the resources themselves and more so with my ability to truly see what they are saying. But I am curious if this has been other peoples' experiences.

Alternatively, do people have any recommendations for books and resources which really focus on the connections between elements of Buddhist doctrine rather than just relaying those elements? It's very difficult for me to be presented with some key element like DO, much less a sutta on DO, and really extract any meaning from it or understand it. It does help me however to relate elements together.
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DooDoot
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Re: Question about pedagogy

Post by DooDoot »

dreicht wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:30 pm do people have any recommendations for books and resources which really focus on the connections between elements of Buddhist doctrine rather than just relaying those elements? It's very difficult for me to be presented with some key element like DO, much less a sutta on DO, and really extract any meaning from it or understand it. It does help me however to relate elements together.
Hi. The words found in DO appear defined in other suttas. This appears the only way to understand DO and how it fits into other teachings.

For example the 2nd link of DO is explained as follows:
And what are [requisite] conditions?
Katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā?

There are three kinds conditions.
Tayome, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā—

Condition for body, for speech and for mind.
kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro.

These are called conditions.
Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.

SN 12.2
Then the words contained in the explanation above are defined as follows:
Householder, there are three conditions.
“Tayo kho, gahapati, saṅkhārā—

Physical, verbal and mind condition.
kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro”ti.

Breathing is the condition for the body. Applied thought and sustained thought are the condition for speech. Perception and feeling are the condition for the mind/heart.

Assāsapassāsā kho, gahapati, kāyasaṅkhāro, vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro, saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.

First you apply & sustain thought, then you break into speech. That’s why applied & sustained thought are verbal processes.

Pubbe kho, gahapati, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṁ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.

SN 21.6
The above words are also found in other suttas, as follows:
They practice breathing in calming the condition for the body. They practice breathing out calming the condition for the body.

‘passambhayaṁ kāyasaṅkhāraṁ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṁ kāyasaṅkhāraṁ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.

They practice breathing in experiencing the condition for the mind [feelings]. They practice breathing out experiencing the condition for the mind [feelings].

cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṁvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṁvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

They practice breathing in calming the condition for the mind [feelings]. They practice breathing out calming the condition for the mind [feelings].

‘passambhayaṁ cittasaṅkhāraṁ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṁ cittasaṅkhāraṁ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.

MN 118
Now those who adhere to the ideas of Abhidhamma and Commentary will disagree with above and assert "sankhara" means "volitional formations" but it appears there is no support for these later ideas in suttas, for which Thanissaro, at least in later writings, came to somewhat agree with my point of view, as follows:
1) Ignorance: not seeing things in terms of the four noble truths of stress, its
origination, its cessation, and the path to its cessation.

2) Fabrication: the process of intentionally shaping states of body and mind.

These processes are of three sorts:

a) bodily fabrication: the in-and-out breath,
b) verbal fabrication: directed thought and evaluation, and
c) mental fabrication: feeling (feeling tones of pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain) and perception (the mental labels applied to the objects of the senses for the purpose of memory and recognition)

Page 3
Each link of Dependent Origination can be analyzed as above, using sutta, such as "jati":
And what is birth?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, jāti?

The birth, inception, conception, production, manifestation of the aggregates and acquisition of the sense objects of the various beings in the various categories of beings.

Yā tesaṁ tesaṁ sattānaṁ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṁ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṁ paṭilābho.

This is called birth.
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, jāti.

SN 12.2
The word "beings" above is defined in other suttas as follows:
“Sir, they speak of this thing called a ‘being’.
“‘satto, satto’ti, bhante, vuccati.

How is a being defined?”
Kittāvatā nu kho, bhante, sattoti vuccatī”ti?

“Rādha, when you cling, strongly cling, to desire, greed, relishing, and craving for form, then a being is spoken of.

“Rūpe kho, rādha, yo chando yo rāgo yā nandī yā taṇhā, tatra satto, tatra visatto, tasmā sattoti vuccati.

When you cling, strongly cling, to desire, greed, relishing, and craving for feeling …
Vedanāya …
perception …
saññāya …
formations…
saṅkhāresu …
consciousness, then a being is spoken of.
viññāṇe yo chando yo rāgo yā nandī yā taṇhā, tatra satto, tatra visatto, tasmā sattoti vuccati.

SN 23.2
Again, most who follow teachings formed from Abhidhamma & Commentaries will disagree with the above. But, as least if we follow sutta, this is the only type of explanations we can find connecting the various teachings.

I was actually writing a book about this but got bored with it because few Buddhists can give up cultural views about Buddhism and their attachment to various "teachers".

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Question about pedagogy

Post by DooDoot »

dreicht wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:30 pm Books like What the Buddha Taught feel somewhat toothless(?)
Very traditional or cultural book of Sri Lankan style dogma.
dreicht wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:30 pm Whereas books like Thanissaro Bhikkhu's on rebirth helps me to see the connections between elements of the teaching (oh, that's what DO actually means... of that's how my negative feelings, what motivates me to find a solution, can be connected to DO...).
I trust we will find Thanissaro's ideas vary over time, such as in his Shape of Suffering, where he attempts a somewhat here & now approach to DO. I have never found any consistency in Thanissaro's writings, which I regard as "work in progress". :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Question about pedagogy

Post by JamesTheGiant »

dreicht wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:30 pm
Has this been other peoples' experience?
Yes! Same for me, for several years at the beginning. It was so difficult to get a whole picture of the thing.
It's something Christianity/Islam does really well, and something Buddhism isn't great at. Maybe because it's easier with a simple Sky-Father.
I just kept reading, and eventually it all fell into place. No books in particular.
It also helped to have real life people to talk to it about, and I'm lucky i have some good Dhamma-friends to chat with.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Question about pedagogy

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:01 pm I trust we will find Thanissaro's ideas vary over time, such as in his Shape of Suffering, where he attempts a somewhat here & now approach to DO. I have never found any consistency in Thanissaro's writings, which I regard as "work in progress". :smile:
Unsurprising, a scholar-practicioner of the level of Thannssaro Bhikkhu would be entirely beyond you.
And he is very consistent throughout his works which are prolific, yet obviously one would be expected to develop and progress over the course of decades of practice and study.

But points to you for slandering yet another esteemed teacher. It seems you are interested in this wrong grasp of dhamma to accumulate as much demerit as possible?

"there is the case where some worthless men study the Dhamma... Having studied the Dhamma, they don't ascertain the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment. Not having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they don't come to an agreement through pondering. They study the Dhamma both for attacking others and for defending themselves in debate. They don't reach the goal for which [people] study the Dhamma. Their wrong grasp of those Dhammas will lead to their long-term harm & suffering. Why is that? Because of the wrong-graspedness of the Dhammas."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Question about pedagogy

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

dreicht wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:30 pm Apologies if this is not the correct place to post.

I've been interested in and engaged with Buddhism on and off over the course of my life. Reflecting on this recently, I've realized that rarely have I understood much of what I have read or heard. Many of the writings about Buddhism that I've encountered seem to either focus on very small sections of Buddhism, books about specific suttas or about mindfulness or whatnot, or approach Buddhism like a theoretical and somewhat abstract exercise (e.g. These are the Four Noble truths, this is dependent arising) without diving too deep into the connections between all of these elements. Books like What the Buddha Taught feel somewhat toothless(?) in the sense that they give you all the elements but don't show any of the connections. Whereas books like Thanissaro Bhikkhu's on rebirth helps me to see the connections between elements of the teaching (oh, that's what DO actually means... of that's how my negative feelings, what motivates me to find a solution, can be connected to DO...).

Has this been other peoples' experience? I do not mean to insult any specific author, of course. And perhaps the dhamma is too complicated to present in all its entirety at once, particularly when many of us are so indoctrinated in other ways of thinking (materialism, scientism, a strong sense of self, etc.). I am grateful for all resources and efforts and perhaps the issue is less with the resources themselves and more so with my ability to truly see what they are saying. But I am curious if this has been other peoples' experiences.

Alternatively, do people have any recommendations for books and resources which really focus on the connections between elements of Buddhist doctrine rather than just relaying those elements? It's very difficult for me to be presented with some key element like DO, much less a sutta on DO, and really extract any meaning from it or understand it. It does help me however to relate elements together.
I would agree that it is a gradual coming together.
I have also found Thannissaro Bhikkhus writings and meditation talks very helpful. He exudes those qualities of which one aspires to in the dhamma, as well as being a very discerning scholar.

This is the key, to ensure an all-around practice. Daily sitting meditation, developent of ones Sila, dhamma study, and critically, engaging meaningfully with a dhamma community preferably in real life, but even if just an online one such as this as long as it is done the right way.
When it all comes together, and when one enjoys all of the above then progress will become consistent.

My own view now after years is that one should most importantly balance practice and study correctly, observing the mind in all activities otherwise excessive study can be a hindrance and disguise for restlessness.

A wide range of dhamma talks from different teachers can be an inspiration also.

For example I recently came across this Bhikkhu Ven Sarana, and found that the talk inspired my practice greatly, on the exponential workings of kamma and 'a thousand eyes for an eye'.



There can be many talks by different monks like this that can invigorate practice and help make those connections. It's not just learning about it sometimes it's the hearing of another talking about it.


As to books, a small selection of standout ones I have found very beneficial and engaging from different teachers have been:

- The Paradox of Becoming - Thannissaro Bhikkhu

- The Mind in Early Buddhism - Bhikkhu Thich Minh Thanh

- Things As They Are- Acarya Maha Boowa

- Who is myself? a commentary on the Potthapada sutta - Ayya Khema

- The Sound of Silence - Ajahn Sumedho
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Bundokji
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Re: Question about pedagogy

Post by Bundokji »

How things are connected is often interpretive whereas the suttas have no specific order. For a structuralist, the teachings can be wiggly as they present nature, and eventually, all constructions, formations and structures are to be let go of.

In a way, any known order that can be found within the teachings says more about the reader/the student and his/her level of development than the teachings themselves. Those who understand the teachings at the deeper levels are said to know the dhamma intuitively or acquiring faculties that are not known to ordinary humans.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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DooDoot
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Re: Question about pedagogy

Post by DooDoot »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:10 amUnsurprising, a scholar-practicioner of the level of Thannssaro Bhikkhu would be entirely beyond you.
Thanissaro is often embarrassingly wrong, such as when Sujato censured him for his 'Not-Self Strategy' & appearing to believe the teaching of Vacchagotta in SN 44.10 was the teaching of the Buddha. As for Shape of Suffering, I always suspected he learned that from my internet posts.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:10 amBut points to you for slandering yet another esteemed teacher. It seems you are interested in this wrong grasp of dhamma to accumulate as much demerit as possible?
The above reminds me of when a man urinates into the wind. :lol: Sorry but there is no demerit here. Thanissaro is often wrong.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:10 amI have also found Thannissaro Bhikkhus writings and meditation talks very helpful. He exudes those qualities of which one aspires to in the dhamma, as well as being a very discerning scholar.
The above appears unsubstantiated. Its sounds like Mahayana Guru Worship.

:focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Question about pedagogy

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dreicht wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:30 pm Alternatively, do people have any recommendations for books and resources which really focus on the connections between elements of Buddhist doctrine rather than just relaying those elements?
Sure, back to topic, Dhamma Wheel with a poster such as my good self is a "resource".

Thus, moving on now to the subject of "ignorance", the suttas generally define ignorance as follows:
“And what, bhikkhus, is ignorance? Not knowing suffering, not knowing the origin of suffering, not knowing the cessation of suffering, not knowing the way leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance.

SN 12.2
Suttas such as MN 9 expand this definition, as follows:
"From the origination of fermentation comes the origination of ignorance. From the cessation of fermentation comes the cessation of ignorance.

From the origination of ignorance comes the origination of fermentation. From the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of fermentation.

MN 9
In addition, AN 10.61 provides another nuance:
Ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances.

AN 10.61
Therefore, when "fermentations" ("asava") and "hindrances" ("nivarana") arise, as well as "underlying tendencies" ("anusaya"; refer to AN 7.11), these are all related to ignorance. In other words, the ignorance link in DO is not only a lack of knowledge but also refers to the primal impulses that emerge from the mind.

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Question about pedagogy

Post by simsapa »

Reflecting on this recently, I've realized that rarely have I understood much of what I have read or heard. Many of the writings about Buddhism that I've encountered seem to either focus on very small sections of Buddhism, books about specific suttas or about mindfulness or whatnot, or approach Buddhism like a theoretical and somewhat abstract exercise
Sit and meditate. Eventually it will come together.
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DooDoot
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Re: Question about pedagogy

Post by DooDoot »

dreicht wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:30 pm These are the Four Noble truths, this is dependent arising
The 4NTs and DO are the same thing. For example, AN 3.61 says:
To one experiencing feeling I declare, 'This is stress.' I declare, 'This is the origination of stress.' I declare, 'This is the cessation of stress.' I declare, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'

"And what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with what is not loved is stressful, separation from what is loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful. This is called the noble truth of stress.

"And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

"And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress?

"From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the cessation of stress.

"And what is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.

"'"There are these four noble truths" is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable brahmans & contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Therefore, the briefest teaching about DO is the same as the 4NTs, namely:
Now this has been said by the Blessed One: “One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.” And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering. The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for these five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering.’

https://suttacentral.net/mn28/en/bodhi
:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Aloka
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Re: Question about pedagogy

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dreicht wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:30 pm
Alternatively, do people have any recommendations for books and resources which really focus on the connections between elements of Buddhist doctrine rather than just relaying those elements? It's very difficult for me to be presented with some key element like DO, much less a sutta on DO, and really extract any meaning from it or understand it. It does help me however to relate elements together.
Hi dreicht,

I found that Ajahn Sumedho's little booklet "The Four Noble Truths" was helpful:

https://amaravati.org/dhamma-books/the- ... le-truths/

and also his excellent 5 volume Anthology:

https://amaravati.org/dhamma-books/anth ... mple-step/

With metta,

Aloka :anjali:
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