Dhamma is not made for grasping

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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may.all.bliss
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Dhamma is not made for grasping

Post by may.all.bliss »

I don't feel like I am the position to dictate world views, people must use what they think helps, but this might be a beneficial topic of discussion.

I think it's important to have and live out a balanced world view, many people these days in the west tend to equate Buddhism with two things;
Peace- and life is suffering, but the phrase;
'life is suffering',
I've heard the most,
and that's really what a lot of people know best.

It's easy then, to fall into the trap, of worldly thinking, of 'life is suffering', or 'I am part of this sad [religion]'.
Many people know better, and I am not saying Buddhists are unhappy, though we may all know probably some sadness, from time to time.

And worldly distractions or consolations are only that effective at erasing, or worse, merely distracting us from suffering.
It is generally better to gain insight, meditative absorption, or improving our relation to the world, by reflecting on (wrong) doings or relations.
That is the true benefactor towards or in happiness.

Buddha is suppose to have said;
"So I have shown you how the Dhamma resembles a raft in being for the purpose of crossing over, not for grasping. Bhikkhus, when you know the Simile of the Raft (then even good) teachings should be abandoned by you, how much more so bad teachings.”

Seeing life as suffering to go deeper into liberation, may be helpful,
but also it was said, that when the Dhamma is not properly understood, it may be like wrongfully grabbing a snake, and getting bit.

So I think we can say, as Buddhists we all have the responsibility to be careful in how we live and speak about the Dhamma,
not dwell on the apparent negative side of things or spread that as the philosophy of Buddhism,
remain humble in speech, remaining happy with people or beings, when that is genuinely possible,
not turn to arrogant control, in views.
Last edited by may.all.bliss on Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dhamma is not made for grasping - balanced world view

Post by Ceisiwr »

I think it would be hard to be offended by that.
"There is no I, nor anything belonging to me, I will not be, what belongs to me will not be. What has earlier [come to] exist, will be extinguished"

MĀ 75
may.all.bliss
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Re: Dhamma is not made for grasping - balanced world view

Post by may.all.bliss »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:02 pm I think it would be hard to be offended by that.
ye.. edited that out
been spending too much time thinking and argrueing elsewhere. too much talking
Mr. Seek
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Re: Dhamma is not made for grasping

Post by Mr. Seek »

> convinced all life is dukkha
> does buddho meditation but with dukkha instead of buddho
> dukkha, dukkha, dukkha
> sees all life as dukkha
> dukkha, dukkha, dukkha
> accessconcentration.jpeg
> nobletruthsrealized.jpeg
> firmly convinced all life is dukkha
> 30 years later
> still dukkha, dukkha, dukkha
> dying
> dukkha, dukkha, dukkha
> perception of dukkha well developed, well established
> sees all life as dukkha
> dies and gets reborn in avici hell
> "o shi"
> demon spears me
> "you done fked up boii, shouldnt have clung to dukkha"
> spends 5000 kalpas boiling in hell
> gets to meet with most of the sangha, #anatta

LOL sorry, I needed to write this. Nothing better than a good meme at the end of a long day.

Yes, OP is right! Concepts such as I, me, suffering, blah-blah, all to be abandoned! Burn those rafts baby, hell yeah!
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
SarathW
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Re: Dhamma is not made for grasping

Post by SarathW »

I agree that the life is Dukkha.
However there is pleasant feeling.
So we must be able to see the Dukkha in pleasant feelings.
Life can be still enjoyed if you do not grasp it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Dhamma is not made for grasping

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Mr. Seek wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:27 am > convinced all life is dukkha
> does buddho meditation but with dukkha instead of buddho
> dukkha, dukkha, dukkha
> sees all life as dukkha
> dukkha, dukkha, dukkha
> accessconcentration.jpeg
> nobletruthsrealized.jpeg
> firmly convinced all life is dukkha
> 30 years later
> still dukkha, dukkha, dukkha
> dying
> dukkha, dukkha, dukkha
> perception of dukkha well developed, well established
> sees all life as dukkha
> dies and gets reborn in avici hell
> "o shi"
> demon spears me
> "you done fked up boii, shouldnt have clung to dukkha"
> spends 5000 kalpas boiling in hell
> gets to meet with most of the sangha, #anatta

LOL sorry, I needed to write this. Nothing better than a good meme at the end of a long day.

Yes, OP is right! Concepts such as I, me, suffering, blah-blah, all to be abandoned! Burn those rafts baby, hell yeah!
Three things.

1. The Buddha only recommended people who had cross the flood (arahants) to abandon the raft. So those who abandoned while crossing the flood, they logically get swept away. The Dhamma is one of the last things you to let go. If you're not a monk/nun, it means you haven't even given up lay life, don't say let go of the Dhamma, it's too early for that.

2. Life is suffering is one of the perception which is highly recommended by the Buddha to remove lust, anger, delusion etc. See AN 5.300+ to AN5.1100+, lust and repeated series. https://suttacentral.net/an5.304/en/sujato. It's high level practise of which leads to total renunciation, disenchantment, dispassion, abandonment, nibbana. It's not an easy thing to be practised by lay people, who typically goes to sensual delight in response to suffering. A lot of lay people don't like to see suffering, so this practise may not be so suitable to be employed. Some beginners even misunderstand this practise, and develop depression based on it. So if you're not at that level yet, don't practise it, it's ok. Just continue with 3 refuge, 5 precepts, learn the Dhamma, listen, read the suttas, Dhamma talks, go to retreats. Eventually, your understanding and wisdom matures to be able to handle seeing unsatisfactoriness is all conditioned phenomena.

3. It's good not to misrepresent the Dhamma like that. Your post above seems to imply practising the Dhamma leads to hell, that's promoting wrong view, that would lead to the unhappiness of many.
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cappuccino
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Re: Dhamma is not made for grasping

Post by cappuccino »

there is a lot of difficulty before a breakthrough


of course in general this is a difficult teaching


but again the breakthrough is expected
Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important than the outcome.
- Arthur Ashe
Mr. Seek
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Re: Dhamma is not made for grasping

Post by Mr. Seek »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:48 amYour post above seems to imply practising the Dhamma leads to hell, that's promoting wrong view, that would lead to the unhappiness of many.
Sorry venerable! And thank you for the input. My post, well the funny part of it, is meant to be a joke. Hope you understood it and got a good laugh out of it. Albeit, of course, humor and laughter is not 'proper'. As for the more serious side of it, which I didn't cover that much, well that's a little tricky. I wrote a similar topic as this one a couple of months back.
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:48 amIf you're not a monk/nun, it means you haven't even given up lay life, don't say let go of the Dhamma, it's too early for that.
I could and would like to discuss this, along with everything else, further. Is there any way we can get in touch with you over voice chat? I promise I'll be civilized.
may.all.bliss
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Re: Dhamma is not made for grasping

Post by may.all.bliss »

no laughing
not made for grasping, ' when you know you know for yourself .. then you should remain in them'

no laughing out loud near lay people's home,
that's only rule for monks afaik, and with many of those rules, history after incidents.
or not so much to show teeth i've heard.

but the rules were made also for compassion etc,
may.all.bliss
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Re: Dhamma is not made for grasping

Post by may.all.bliss »

Another reason I think that verse is important is because it shows Nibanna, is for all,
and that there is nothing wrong with enjoying life, in fact that is good, and negative teaching could become a hindrance.

Some people, due to physical hardships, emotional hardships, have not only a restless mind, but may know very little emotional happiness, usually due to a poor upbringing, then 'all life is suffering' could be an easy door to let go, it is a useful view for deep meditation indeed.
But that is not the only valid way of experiencing life, or 'the Buddhist way'.

For people who have a lot of metta, right upbringing, healthy relations, that view may not apply so much.
They may have a harder time going beyond the world then, could be, but can experience life as relatively pleasant or wonderful also.

And that experience has it's place too, hence, it was said 'how much more so [let go] of the bad teaching', I think.

And I think, after liberation, free to enjoy the world and free to renounce it, as clinging is gone either way.
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