Is Tathagata a concept ?

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cappuccino
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by cappuccino »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:32 pm The topic is about Tathagata. :shrug:
I know


not no self, rather just absence
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by cappuccino »

like an empty room is not no room


empty car is not no car


empty plane is not no plane
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:33 pm ...
not no self, rather just absence

cappuccino wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:44 pm like an empty room is not no room


empty car is not no car


empty plane is not no plane

So what?

empty what is not no what?

empty room equated with empty self ?

If so, it amounts to explicitly saying that there is the room, but just empty; and there is the self, but just empty, --- doesn't it ?
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
sphairos
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by sphairos »

Is concept a "concept"?
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

sphairos wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:40 pm Is concept a "concept"?

As you may very well have already known, it's just a Camgirl. :mrgreen:


viewtopic.php?p=645986#p645986
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by cappuccino »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:39 pm If so, it amounts to explicitly saying that there is the room, but just empty; and there is the self, but just empty, --- doesn't it ?
I don't say there is a self


I'm just saying emptiness
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:05 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:39 pm If so, it amounts to explicitly saying that there is the room, but just empty; and there is the self, but just empty, --- doesn't it ?
I don't say there is a self


I'm just saying emptiness



You said:
  • 1
    cappuccino wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:33 pm not no self, rather just absence
And,
  • 2
    cappuccino wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:44 pm like an empty room is not no room

    empty car is not no car

    empty plane is not no plane

If these 1 & 2 are taken together, it clearly points to:
  • empty Self is not no Self
especially when considering the point of your not having answered my question yet of:
  • "empty what is not no what?"
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by cappuccino »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:36 pm
the body is empty of self


consciousness is empty of self


etc.
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:38 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:36 pm
the body is empty of self


consciousness is empty of self


etc.

You didn't answer my question of "empty what is not no what?"


Using your previous wordings of (empty room is not no room), the sentences can only be like this:
  • empty body is not no body
  • empty consciousness is not no consciousness
And, theses are fine.

However, these reasoning doesn't automatically lead to "consciousness is empty of self". When you bring in the idea regarding self/"empty self"/"not no self", the sentence can only be "empty Self is not no Self", which acknowledges that there is self which is empty.

Indeed. When your stance of "not no self" is superimposed upon your example sentence of "empty room is not no room", the resultant sentence could only be "empty Self is not no Self".
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by cappuccino »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:58 pm which acknowledges that there is self which is empty
you are attached to self doctrines of self & no self


I can only say neither is true & affirm not self
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Rambutan »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:58 pm When you bring in the idea regarding self/"empty self"/"not no self", the sentence can only be "empty Self is not no Self", which acknowledges that there is self which is empty.
Actually, it doesn’t.
“Self” is an abstract concept to begin with, so you need to define it. In the Buddhist context, “self” refers to something which is not composed of aggregates.

The illusion of a self is an experience that arises from aggregates. But there is nowhere among the aggregates that “self” can be located.

The Buddha certainly didn’t deny that the experience of self doesn’t occur.
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

If by "concept" you mean an idea, conception or abstraction, then a tathagata is in some ways a concept, in other ways the opposite , or even neither a concept nor the opposite, but something out of classification. Again, it depends of the perspective you are approaching the subject.

Regards.
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Rambutan wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:08 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:58 pm When you bring in the idea regarding self/"empty self"/"not no self", the sentence can only be "empty Self is not no Self", which acknowledges that there is self which is empty.
Actually, it doesn’t.
“Self” is an abstract concept to begin with, so you need to define it. In the Buddhist context, “self” refers to something which is not composed of aggregates.

The illusion of a self is an experience that arises from aggregates. But there is nowhere among the aggregates that “self” can be located.

The Buddha certainly didn’t deny that the experience of self doesn’t occur.

:goodpost:

The experience of self does occur in the form of "illusion" or perversions at several dimensions.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:03 pm ...
you are attached to self doctrines of self & no self

Oops!
Actually, it's mr :coffee: who first brought in the standalone post about "self" here under the topic of Tathagata viewtopic.php?p=645857#p645857, and according I pointed out it's (standalone discussion of self) being off-topic viewtopic.php?p=645859#p645859, but mr :coffee: continued posting about self viewtopic.php?p=645860#p645860. Who's more attached? :mrgreen:




cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:03 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:58 pm which acknowledges that there is self which is empty

I can only say neither is true & affirm not self

I understand your point above.

I'm just pointing out that your simile of "empty room is not no room" cannot be applied to your preceding statement of "which is not no self, rather just absence". What is common to your both sentences?

It can easily be seen that what is common to your both sentences is the unsual juxtaposition of "not" & "no": "not no room" & "not no self". Let's see your two successive post again together:
  • cappuccino wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:33 pm ...
    not no self, rather just absence

  • cappuccino wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:44 pm like an empty room is not no room

    empty car is not no car

    empty plane is not no plane
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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cappuccino
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by cappuccino »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:53 pm What is common to your both sentences?
absence
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