The awareness itself is the unconditioned

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
may.all.bliss
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by may.all.bliss »

Awareness is the best term, or pure awareness.
What else is going to experience it, it is not a knock-out of awareness, else you could just drink yourself to the point of blacking out.

Consciousness refers to 'the sense of being' in Buddhism, which is conditioned, and 'being' likewise refers to being conditioned (as appose to the other traditions).

“When lust, hate, and delusion are abandoned, a man does not choose for his own affliction or
for others’ affliction or for the affliction of both. In that way there comes to be Nibbāna here and
now, without delay, inviting inspection, onward-leading, and experienceable by the wise.”
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mikenz66
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by mikenz66 »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:45 am This has been discussed before. There are Canon passages both in support of and seemingly against this position.

A good book on the topic from an academic scholarly perspective it here:

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... -2004r.pdf
Thanks for that!

Would you be able to point to the section where Harvey discusses this issue? I've read this book before, but don't remember too many of the details.

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Mike
SteRo
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by SteRo »

How can awareness that depends on life be called "the unconditioned"? :lol:
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:47 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:45 am This has been discussed before. There are Canon passages both in support of and seemingly against this position.

A good book on the topic from an academic scholarly perspective it here:

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... -2004r.pdf
Thanks for that!

Would you be able to point to the section where Harvey discusses this issue? I've read this book before, but don't remember too many of the details.

:heart:
Mike
Chapter 12 on Nibbana as a form of discernment covers it.
SteRo wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:16 am How can awareness that depends on life be called "the unconditioned"? :lol:
Does it depend on life, or does life also depend on it? He is talking about a consciousness beyond the six sense base consciousness.
All sensory consciousness including the mind-consciousness and the mind base arise with the formation of nama-rupa but there can be a consciousness beyond this which is the core or witnessing aspect, awareness aware of itself. He is referring to this.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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DooDoot
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by DooDoot »

Crazy cloud wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:24 pm I don't care about personal opinions because I know it works.
Ajahn Sumedho is using language in an unorthodox way. He is referring to consciousness unconditioned (asaṅkhatā) by defilements; however the Suttas do not appear to use the word "unconditioned" in this way. The Suttas say:
“This mind, mendicants, is radiant.
Pabhassaramidaṁ, bhikkhave, cittaṁ.

But it’s corrupted by passing corruptions.”
Tañca kho āgantukehi upakkilesehi upakkiliṭṭhan”ti.

“This mind, mendicants, is radiant.
“Pabhassaramidaṁ, bhikkhave, cittaṁ.

And it is freed from passing corruptions.”
Tañca kho āgantukehi upakkilesehi vippamuttan”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an1.41-50/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by DooDoot »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:42 am Chapter 12 on Nibbana as a form of discernment covers it.
Nibbana is an element rather than a type of wisdom.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:42 am He is talking about a consciousness beyond the six sense base consciousness.
The above does not exist in the Suttas.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:42 amAll sensory consciousness including the mind-consciousness and the mind base arise with the formation of nama-rupa but there can be a consciousness beyond this which is the core or witnessing aspect, awareness aware of itself. He is referring to this.
Not according to the Suttas. That above sounds like Hindu Brahma.

When DN 11 refers to a consciousness existing when nama-rupa ceases, the use of the term 'nama-rupa' here follows its Brahmanistic definition, which is apparent in DN 11, where nama-rupa is classed as a discrimination, similar to long vs short.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:42 am
Does it depend on life, or does life also depend on it? He is talking about a consciousness beyond the six sense base consciousness.
All sensory consciousness including the mind-consciousness and the mind base arise with the formation of nama-rupa but there can be a consciousness beyond this which is the core or witnessing aspect, awareness aware of itself. He is referring to this.
How is this different to bog standard soul theories?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:09 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:42 am Chapter 12 on Nibbana as a form of discernment covers it.
Nibbana is an element rather than a type of wisdom.
He is using the term 'discernment' in place of vinnana or consciousness.
DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:09 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:42 am He is talking about a consciousness beyond the six sense base consciousness.
The above does not exist in the Suttas.
Wrong. It exists in the suttas, namely the Udana and other passages.
Therefore, monks, that sphere should be known wherein the eye ceases and perceptions of form fade away, that sphere should be known wherein the ear ceases and perceptions of sound fade away, that sphere should be known wherein the nose ceases and perceptions of smell fade away, that sphere should be known wherein the tongue ceases and perceptions of taste fade away, that sphere should be known wherein the body ceases and perceptions of the tangible fade away, that sphere should be known wherein the mind ceases and perceptions of mind objects fade away, that sphere should be known, that sphere should be known.”

Udana
DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:09 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:42 amAll sensory consciousness including the mind-consciousness and the mind base arise with the formation of nama-rupa but there can be a consciousness beyond this which is the core or witnessing aspect, awareness aware of itself. He is referring to this.
Not according to the Suttas. That above sounds like Hindu Brahma.

When DN 11 refers to a consciousness existing when nama-rupa ceases, the use of the term 'nama-rupa' here follows its Brahmanistic definition, which is apparent in DN 11, where nama-rupa is classed as a discrimination, similar to long vs short.
You can try to rationalize away the consciousness all you want but it's declaration in the suttas is self evident.

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:12 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:42 am
Does it depend on life, or does life also depend on it? He is talking about a consciousness beyond the six sense base consciousness.
All sensory consciousness including the mind-consciousness and the mind base arise with the formation of nama-rupa but there can be a consciousness beyond this which is the core or witnessing aspect, awareness aware of itself. He is referring to this.
How is this different to bog standard soul theories?
Dependent origination is the distinguishing factor.
Consciousness is implicit in the first link of dependent origination, namely ignorance as condition leading to intentions.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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mikenz66
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by mikenz66 »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:42 am
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:47 pm Would you be able to point to the section where Harvey discusses this issue? I've read this book before, but don't remember too many of the details.
Chapter 12 on Nibbana as a form of discernment covers it.
Thanks. That's useful. There are some complex ideas there. He even quotes Ven Maha Boowa.

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Mr. Seek
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Mr. Seek »

I don't have the motivation to watch the video after reading its title. May they be well.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:32 am

Dependent origination is the distinguishing factor.
Consciousness is implicit in the first link of dependent origination, namely ignorance as condition leading to intentions.
So it’s not unconditioned then.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by DooDoot »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:32 am namely ignorance as condition leading to intentions.
The suttas say intention is at namarupa. It is Abhidhamma that says sankhara is intention.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by un8- »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:29 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:32 am namely ignorance as condition leading to intentions.
The suttas say intention is at namarupa. It is Abhidhamma that says sankhara is intention.
So? The suttas say feelings are also at nama rupa but also after contact too.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Crazy cloud »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:44 am
Crazy cloud wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:24 pm I don't care about personal opinions because I know it works.
Ajahn Sumedho is using language in an unorthodox way. He is referring to consciousness unconditioned (asaṅkhatā) by defilements; however the Suttas do not appear to use the word "unconditioned" in this way. The Suttas say:
“This mind, mendicants, is radiant.
Pabhassaramidaṁ, bhikkhave, cittaṁ.

But it’s corrupted by passing corruptions.”
Tañca kho āgantukehi upakkilesehi upakkiliṭṭhan”ti.

“This mind, mendicants, is radiant.
“Pabhassaramidaṁ, bhikkhave, cittaṁ.

And it is freed from passing corruptions.”
Tañca kho āgantukehi upakkilesehi vippamuttan”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an1.41-50/en/sujato
And Luang Por Sumedho can as easily point to other writings of the scripture that do support his view, I heard him mention it many times. And you are right when saying he is unorthodox, and he knows about being regarded as such but doesn't seem to be bothered about it. Another word that I would use is "original"
And Luang Por also reminds people not to trust his words but to put them to the test. I have been testing them for 8 years, and know I will continue on this path until the last breath, and a nice proof for me personally, is that I'm not mentally attached to this teacher or teachings.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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Crazy cloud
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Re: The awareness itself is the unconditioned

Post by Crazy cloud »

SteRo wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:16 am How can awareness that depends on life be called "the unconditioned"? :lol:
How do you know that awareness is dependent on life?
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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