Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Assaji wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:31 pm [“When I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”
I remember Sylvester commented on the grammar of this some time ago.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Here it is
No need to wonder why and mount a critique of the Comy. If you pay closer attention to the sutta, it says -

“so ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūto caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tasmiṃ samaye caṅkamo hoti”

It does NOT say -

“so ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūtā caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tesu samayesu caṅkamo hoti”

Sometimes, the simplest answer is found in whether the inflection is in the plural or singular. That passage describes (i) establishment of mindfulness, and (ii) 4 jhanas. Since the Pali is in the singular, which of these 2 would the walking passage refer to?
More here: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=18276&hilit=walk+back+forth
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

samseva wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:13 pmThe issue is some people like frank say you can walk while in jhāna, which is false.
It's not false per se. It's non-Theravādin, presented falsely as Theravādin. Frank, reading the Buddha's sūtras, has come to a conclusion that numerous non-Theravādin schools have also come to, to wit that the dhyānas are not necessarily disembodied states with no experience of the 5 rūpa-associated viññāṇas. The Vaibhāṣikas, Sautrāntikas, Mahāsāṃghikas (in particular the Pūrvaśailas), and others have come to similar conclusions in the past, and those are only the schools that I can cite textual material from. In the tradition of Mahāyāna that I've the most training in, Tendai-shū, "shikan," Japanese for "śamathavipaśyanā," a practice aimed at dhyānic samādhi, is practiced in all of the four āsanas of conservative Buddhist yoga: sitting, standing, walking, and lying down. This wouldn't be particularly relevant, but Master Zhizhe bases himself on the dhyāna sūtras on this, a body of literature generally pre-dating the Mahāyāna. I'll post more on this later when I have time. I mean material from the dhyāna sūtras, not stuff to do with Mahāyāna.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

Assaji wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:31 pm There's no such difference, and there's no non-jhānic ekaggatā.
Could you provide a Sutta for that claim (Pāḷi)?
Assaji wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:31 pm Walking is very well suited for jhāna
Why would walking be "very well suited for jhāna"? That is solely your opinion.
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:33 pm I remember Sylvester commented on the grammar of this some time ago.
Here and here.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

Assaji wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:31 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:57 pm In the other thread, you defined samādhi as citass'ekaggatā. What differentiates the ekaggatā in the "access jhāna," or walking samādhi here, from a) jhānic ekaggatā that prevents rūpa-derived consciousnesses from being produced, and b) normal ekaggatā as a universal mental factor? What's the difference other than the non-jhānic ekaggatā being "wibbly-wobbly," so to speak, meaning the concentration object does not exhaustively fill all perception?
There's no such difference, and there's no non-jhānic ekaggatā.
If ekaggatā is a universal caitasika and there is no non-jhānic ekaggatā, how does this not imply that jhāna is intrinsic to all conscious experience?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 pm Vaibhāṣikas
How can they be included when their Abhidharma takes the opposite view? I realise that Vasubandhu has them saying that, but how accurate was he?
This wouldn't be particularly relevant, but Master Zhizhe bases himself on the dhyāna sūtras on this, a body of literature generally pre-dating the Mahāyāna
Aren’t those texts influenced by the Sautrāntikas? It’s hardly surprising then that they lend themselves to such an interpretation.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by samseva »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 pm It's not false per se. It's non-Theravādin, presented falsely as Theravādin.
It's not because a non-Theravādin school says one can be in jhāna and also walk at the same time that it makes it true. Frank thinks it's true solely from a single Sutta, of which the Pāḷi grammar is misunderstood.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Would everyone agree that kasiṇa based jhāna is without the 5 senses?

“One person perceives the earth kasiṇa above, below, across, non-dual, measureless.”
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

Everyone who's opinion matters on this forum.

:tongue: :spy: :stirthepot:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:03 pm Everyone who's opinion matters on this forum.

:tongue: :spy: :stirthepot:
:o :jumping:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by nirodh27 »

samseva wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:05 pm It's not because a non-Theravādin school says one can be in jhāna and also walk at the same time that it makes it true. Frank thinks it's true solely from a single Sutta, of which the Pāḷi grammar is misunderstood.
Hi Samseva,

How the Pali grammar is misunderstood? It seems very clear to me that that single sutta says that you can walk in fourth Jhana.

I've read the "argument of grammar" topic and it is clear that the walking refers to the jhanas and not the establishment of mindfulness given the ordering of the sutta. After all, also the proposer of the argument concludes:
I'm not even sure if the "argument from grammar" is conclusive. If you read whole sutta you can conclude that it's not the establishment of sati that makes Buddha's walking, standing, sitting or laying down divine or noble, but states which proceed after the establishment of sati, namely: jhānas, brahmavihāras and retrospective knowledge of attainment of arahantship.

Hi piotr

I'm in agreement that the sg/pl distinction is probably not going to be very helpful
Also, I think that we would not refer to an establishment of mindfulness as "celestial". BB is on spot, dominant understanding says one thing, the sutta another.
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:40 pm I've read the "argument of grammar" topic and it is clear that the walking refers to the jhanas and not the establishment of mindfulness given the ordering of the sutta. After all, also the proposer of the argument concludes:
You didn’t fully quote him.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:47 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:40 pm I've read the "argument of grammar" topic and it is clear that the walking refers to the jhanas and not the establishment of mindfulness given the ordering of the sutta. After all, also the proposer of the argument concludes:
You didn’t fully quote him.
Yes I was correcting my post in the meanwhile before your blazing fast response. I've seen the second argument on the suttacentral forum (it is certainly more insteresting than the first you quoted about the singular/plural, but actually I would dream to have the BB response about that argument or maybe It would be interesting also to look at other translations. The misfortunes to not knowing pali).
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:03 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 pm Vaibhāṣikas
How can they be included when their Abhidharma takes the opposite view? I realise that Vasubandhu has them saying that, but how accurate was he?
Does their Abhidharma take the opposite view?

AFAIK, the difference between Vaibhāṣika and Sautrāntika with respect to dhyāna is if the body is present in the 2nd and 3rd dhyāna. They both agree that the mind, ear, body, and eye are active in the first dhyāna. And, yes, it's always possible Venerable Vasbandhu is mistaken.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:55 pm
I’m pretty sure the Mahāvibhāṣā takes the view that sounds cannot be heard whilst in Jhana.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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