Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma claims you can not hear sounds in jhāna, but their logic is fallacious

[samseva]

Frankk or others have an understanding of Jhana that is opposed to yours and it is informed by many passages and research.

No, it is informed by one single passage. That's exactly my point.

The passage is clear as pure water

A single incorrectly translated passage is, according to you, "clear as pure water."

The argument about the pali and the translation again I raise my hands, but for you this is not so important at this point.

The Pāḷi is precisely important.

This passage is not very important, since at the time of the Buddha Jhanas were not debated at all and their nature was clear thanks to the Buddha's presence and direct explanations. No-one had the slightest doubt of their nature, nor it is hard to imagine that it was an heavily discussed topic for practice purposes.

So you know how things were, and the minds of those people more than 2560 years ago? You completely pulled that out of your rear.

[Ceisiwr]

[To know if you can walk in them or not is obvious if you pick a side. If I picked yours, I would dismiss the passage even if it was written "when I was still in fourth Jhana, without exiting fourth jhana, i walked back and forth". Because it can't possibly fit absorption as teached in the Visuddhimagga.

I do wish people would stop framing this as a sutta vs
Visuddhimagga argument.

[nirodh27]

Frankk or others have an understanding of Jhana that is opposed to yours and it is informed by many passages and research.

No, it is informed by one single passage. That's exactly my point.

I've said the understanding of Jhana, what I'm trying to say to you is that the reading of this small issue change dramatically with the understanding, the lens that you have about the big issue, if Jhanas are states of deep absorption or not.

The passage is clear as pure water
A single incorrectly translated passage is, according to you, "clear as pure water."

I ignore this because this is not a way to discuss.

So you know how things were, and the minds of those people more than 2560 years ago? You completely pulled that out of your rear.

Pure logic. First, if the Buddha was there, no possible discussion about Jhanas was possible. "It is possible to hear in Jhana?" Yes/no. "It is possible to walk?" Yes/no "what do you mean by vitakka?" "This", "Is access concentration a skillful idea about Jhana?" Yes/no. With five minutes with the Buddha, this forum will resolve 99% of the issues discussed and many sections would close for lack of arguments to discuss.

In the same way when you are in a group of practice, especially with admirable friends, discussion about the difficulties of the practice (hindrances) and how to overcome them or develop factors of awakening are a normal thing. Some of those events are even recorded in the canon.

[samseva]

I do wish people would stop framing this as a sutta vs
Visuddhimagga argument.

Many supposed "hard-jhāna" proponents don't even like, or read the Visuddhimagga. The argument that all non-"jhāna-lite" proponents are pro-Visuddhimagga is made of wooden popsicle sticks.

[nirodh27]

[To know if you can walk in them or not is obvious if you pick a side. If I picked yours, I would dismiss the passage even if it was written "when I was still in fourth Jhana, without exiting fourth jhana, i walked back and forth". Because it can't possibly fit absorption as teached in the Visuddhimagga.

I do wish people would stop framing this as a sutta vs
Visuddhimagga argument.

I've tried to do it by saying "as teached in the Visuddhimagga". I respect those who think that in some form or full form the Jhanas as described in the Visuddhimagga matches with the suttas and you are correct in pointing out that "sutta jhanas" is a word that no-one has the right to appropriate or use to describe their position. I don't remember that I've used the term actually, but maybe yes.

Even if, by reading this forum, I've learned that, just like there's a personal Jesus for every believer, there's a personal Jhana for every practitioner so the only option would be to use the nickname of the person to identify the type of Jhana.

[Coëmgenu]

Vis-à-vis the dhyānas in the four āsanas of Buddhist yoga as taught by Master Zhìzhě, it turns out it's from the Pratyutpannabuddhasaṃmukhāvasthitasamādhisūtra, which is too Mahāyānized to be considered one of the older, less adapted, Dhyānasūtras. Apologies.

[samseva]

Vis-à-vis the dhyānas in the four āsanas of Buddhist yoga as taught by Master Zhìzhě, it turns out it's from the Pratyutpannabuddhasaṃmukhāvasthitasamādhisūtra, which is too Mahāyānized to be considered one of the older, less adapted, Dhyānasūtras. Apologies.

It's okay, we forgive you.

Although we don't forgive you about the length of that Sanskrit word.

[Coëmgenu]

Just wait until I'm citing the Āryasarvabuddhaviṣayāvatārajñānālokālaṃkāranāmamahāyānasūtra in the "Connections" subforum.

[samseva]

Even if, by reading this forum, I've learned that, just like there's a personal Jesus for every believer, there's a personal Jhana for every practitioner so the only option would be to use the nickname of the person to identify the type of Jhana.

You don't seem to understand that expression.

Regarding jhāna, it's not complicated: lack of the five hindrances, presence of vitakka, vicāra, pīti, sukha—and you can't hear sounds, and definitely can't walk, or listen to the radio, while in jhāna. That's all.

If there is one of the hindrances, or you hear people talking next to you, or a clock ticking, that's not jhāna—that's sitting with your eyes closed and meditating.

[Ceisiwr]

…

My point was that this debate predates the Visuddhimagga by some centuries.

[nirodh27]

…

My point was that this debate predates the Visuddhimagga by some centuries.

I see. Interesting stuff to know for sure, maybe some practical advice for dispassion will come from that knowledge.

Whatever, all that is useless now, Samseva has ended the debate today with his last post. That's all.

[Ceisiwr]

Do you have a quote? I've a contrary one from the Kośa if so, which I've trotted out before. The Vibhāṣa would have a better pedigree than the Kośa though.

BTW, are you thinking of the citation of the Arthaviniścayasūtra from this thread?

I had this in mind

"The *Mahāvibhāṣā, an Abhidharma text of the Sarvāstivāda, also rejects the possibility of hearing sounds while in the first dhyāna.202 This treatise states that one is unable to hear sounds while in the first dhyāna, and thus it is impossible that Venerable Maudgalyāyana could have heard sounds while in the base of nothingness.203...In the *Mahāvibhāṣā and the *Abhidharmavibhāṣāśāstra, a question is raised in relation to awareness of the breath while one is in dhyāna thus: If one is aware of in-and out breath throughout the entire body, why does one not emerge from a dhyāna? Regarding sensory awareness, the Abhidharmakośabhāṣya and the Abhidharmanyāyānusāraśāstra show that the orthodoxy of the Sarvāstivāda maintains that the five sensory consciousnesses do not occur while one is in dhyāna, and the Mahāvibhāṣā also maintains that one is unable to hear sounds while in the first dhyāna.554

It is taken from a paper called "ISSUES IN ŚAMATHA AND VIPAŚYANĀ: A COMPARATIVE STUDY OF BUDDHIST MEDITATION" by YA-CHUN HUNG. He references the section of the Mahāvibhāṣa that he is drawing on: Mhv at T1545, 929c9: 住初靜慮者尚不聞聲，何況住無所有處定.

Naturally this implies that the Vaibhāṣikas took a similar view of Jhāna as their Theravādin brothers and sisters did. If true this would greatly explain why the Kathāvatthu doesn't criticise them on any meditative points. The same for the Pudgalavādins, from what I recall. The picture I generally get is the following

Absorbed Jhāna
Theravāda, Sarvāstivāda and Pudgalavāda.

Jhāna-lite
Pubbaseliyā, Sautrāntikas

With a middle ground presented by the Bahuśrutīya (Jhāna-lite for the 1st Jhāna, absorbed for the rest). Mahāyāna then of course inherits Jhāna-lite from the Sautrāntikas. What is difficult, however, is that the author claims that the Abhidharmakośabhāsya has the Vaibhāṣikas saying this, which based on my last reading isn't accurate. I have no idea if what he says about the Abhidharmanyāyānusāraśāstra is true or not.

[Ceisiwr]

Personally I think Jhāna-lite can be viewed favourably by those who hold the view of absorption. By that I mean it can be viewed as being access concentration, and so is suitable for attaining stream-entry. Can the Jhāna-lite model also incorporate the absorbed understanding? I take it those who propose said theory accept that at some point the 5 senses are abandoned, at least by some meditators, and that said experience can be a means for insight and so awakening? What exactly is the Jhāna-lite understanding of the what Ajahn Brahm etc etc propose? What exactly are we doing, or trying to do, according to the Jhāna-lite worldview? Frank and BrokenBones think it is simply some weird meditative state, something which is Wrong Concentration. Is that shared by others here? It would have some interesting repercussions if true, for it would mean that Theravāda isn't capable of leading to awakening at all and so no Arahants have ever existed within that school. I don't think it is true, partly because I don't think Wrong Concentration is based on what you are experiencing, but I'm interested in what others have to say here.

[Coëmgenu]

Absorbed Jhāna
Theravāda, Sarvāstivāda and Pudgalavāda.

Jhāna-lite
Pubbaseliyā, Sautrāntikas

You forgot the attestation from Abhidharmāmṛta. Which makes the matter:

Absorbed Jhāna
Theravāda, Sarvāstivāda and Pudgalavāda.

Jhāna-lite
Pubbaseliyā, Sautrāntikas, + unknown Central Asian Sarvāstivādin sect (Ven Ghoṣaka's)

Venerable Ghoṣaka is also one of the authors whose views are included in the Talmudic compendium of the Mahāvibhāṣā. Earlier this year, we spoke of the three svabhāvas of the three times. This was Ven Ghoṣaka's explanation of tri-temporality, using svabhāvas associated with the three time periods, as opposed to the explanations of the other Ābhidharmika patriarchs of the Sarvāstivādins.

[Ceisiwr]

Absorbed Jhāna
Theravāda, Sarvāstivāda and Pudgalavāda.

Jhāna-lite
Pubbaseliyā, Sautrāntikas

You forgot the attestation from Abhidharmāmṛta. Which makes the matter:

Absorbed Jhāna
Theravāda, Sarvāstivāda and Pudgalavāda.

Jhāna-lite
Pubbaseliyā, Sautrāntikas, + unknown Central Asian Sarvāstivādin sect (Ven Ghoṣaka's)

Venerable Ghoṣaka is also one of the authors whose views are included in the Talmudic compendium of the Mahāvibhāṣā. Earlier this year, we spoke of the three svabhāvas of the three times. This was Ven Ghoṣaka's explanation of tri-temporality, using svabhāvas associated with the three time periods, as opposed to the explanations of the other Ābhidharmika patriarchs of the Sarvāstivādins.

The plot thickens