Ven. Anālayo uses circular reasoning, to assert that jhāna is not possible while walking

[Coëmgenu]

I’m well aware it’s not quite correct, much like when I say “Jhanas”.

Well, I think it's "wronger" than using the plural -s from English on a non-English noun. That doesn't mean it is. I also used to insist on trying to incorporate inflected forms into English, and I ultimately decided it was futile because I would have to write things like "kāmānaṁ drawback." I'll edit this message in a second and make it more germane to the topic at hand.

In Saṁyuktāgama Sūtra 197, the Buddha "enters into (the) fire samādhi" (入火三昧) in order to perform the twin miracle. He does this after levitating into the sky and performing the four comportments. The translation of the sūtra is considerably vague as to which concentration specifically the Buddha performed the four comportments in. Venerable Anālayo's translation has, "[...] entered into an attainment of concentration appropriate for the manifestation of his ascent into the air towards the east" (示現入禪定正受， 陵虛至東方). As we all likely know by now, fire 火 is one of the meditation subjects in Sarvāstivāda, from which SA 197 comes to us, and Theravāda alike.

Ven Anālayo adds clarificatory material into his English rendering. Specifically, he adds "appropriate for," which doesn't appear to be in the Chinese as far as I can see.

示現入禪定正受， 陵虛至東方
(he) manifested entrance into the dhyāna samādhi* and rose into the sky towards the east

*it is ambiguous if 正受 should be read as "samādhi" or "samāpatti."

[SDC]

…

But then you have multiple suttas describing that which ceases in certain jhanas, so why aren’t sense objects described at all in those cases? Seclusion does not imply that something has ceased. In MN 19 it refers to development:

… Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of renunciation, he has abandoned the thought of sensual desire to cultivate the thought of renunciation, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of renunciation. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of non-ill will…upon thoughts of non-cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of cruelty to cultivate the thought of non-cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of non-cruelty.

“Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been brought inside the villages, a cowherd would guard his cows while staying at the root of a tree or out in the open, since he needs only to be mindful that the cows are there; so too, there was need for me only to be mindful that those states were there.

Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified.

“Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna

The seclusion was developed through repeated effort of inclining the mind in a wholesome direction. It took previous effort to abandon sensual desire, ill will and cruelty, but once developed, it is the “hot season” and the crops are gone and the cowherd can leave the cows and not worry. My point is that the senses are irrelevant, what matters is that when the crops were ripe, the cowherd did not let his cows stray into the fields. He worked hard when things were dangerous. When sense desire is still present, there is no seclusion and that is why restraint is absolutely paramount. So once all of this has been set up, jhana is available for discernment.

I guess it begs the question, why would the five senses being shutdown matter in this description? The knowledge has nothing to with their availability either way.

[Ceisiwr]

But then you have multiple suttas describing that which ceases in certain jhanas, so why aren’t sense objects described at all in those cases? Seclusion does not imply that something has ceased.

I imagine it’s because if it had said the kāmā had ceased it would mean the external world ceases when one is in jhāna, which is why instead it says away from (seclusion). Since attention is required to experience any sense base, being non-attentive to the 5 senses (secluded from) would mean not experiencing them at that time.

In MN 19 it refers to development…

The seclusion was developed through repeated effort of inclining the mind in a wholesome direction. It took previous effort to abandon sensual desire, ill will and cruelty, but once developed, it is the “hot season” and the crops are gone and the cowherd can leave the cows and not worry. My point is that the senses are irrelevant, what matters is that when the crops were ripe, the cowherd did not let his cows stray into the fields. He worked hard when things were dangerous. When sense desire is still present, there is no seclusion and that is why restraint is absolutely paramount. So once all of this has been set up, jhana is available for discernment.

I don’t see the point you are trying to make?

I guess it begs the question, why would the five senses being shutdown matter in this description? The knowledge has nothing to with their availability either way.

At a basic level, so you know when you are in jhāna or not.

[SDC]

In MN 19 it refers to development…

The seclusion was developed through repeated effort of inclining the mind in a wholesome direction. It took previous effort to abandon sensual desire, ill will and cruelty, but once developed, it is the “hot season” and the crops are gone and the cowherd can leave the cows and not worry. My point is that the senses are irrelevant, what matters is that when the crops were ripe, the cowherd did not let his cows stray into the fields. He worked hard when things were dangerous. When sense desire is still present, there is no seclusion and that is why restraint is absolutely paramount. So once all of this has been set up, jhana is available for discernment.

I don’t see the point you are trying to make?

If jhana were about a shutdown of senses, it doesn’t seem as though it would matter what degree of development towards renunciation, non-ill will and non-cruelty has been developed thoroughly beforehand. According to MN 19, jhana is available on account of knowledge, not a shutdown or a blankness of the senses. I’m sure it makes more sense to say that for the formless dimensions, but not in regards to what needs to be in place for jhana to even be available. My point overall is that your argument doesn’t take this preliminary work into consideration as the reason that sensuality and unwholesome states are no longer an immediate threat even before jhana is discerned.

[BrokenBones]

In MN 19 it refers to development…

The seclusion was developed through repeated effort of inclining the mind in a wholesome direction. It took previous effort to abandon sensual desire, ill will and cruelty, but once developed, it is the “hot season” and the crops are gone and the cowherd can leave the cows and not worry. My point is that the senses are irrelevant, what matters is that when the crops were ripe, the cowherd did not let his cows stray into the fields. He worked hard when things were dangerous. When sense desire is still present, there is no seclusion and that is why restraint is absolutely paramount. So once all of this has been set up, jhana is available for discernment.

I don’t see the point you are trying to make?

If jhana were about a shutdown of senses, it doesn’t seem as though it would matter what degree of development towards renunciation, non-ill will and non-cruelty has been developed thoroughly beforehand. According to MN 19, jhana is available on account of knowledge, not a shutdown or a blankness of the senses. I’m sure it makes more sense to say that for the formless dimensions, but not in regards to what needs to be in place for jhana to even be available. My point overall is that your argument doesn’t take this preliminary work into consideration as the reason that sensuality and unwholesome states are no longer an immediate threat even before jhana is discerned.

Agreed.

It sounds like a magic switch is pressed and hey presto! You've achieved renunciation, good will & compassion by the mere concentration on one point. You've certainly pushed the 'baddies' to one side but they've not been weakened nor lost any of their potency to strike once you come back down to earth.

I see a lot of similarities in certain vipassana techniques.

[nirodh27]

I see a lot of similarities in certain vipassana techniques.

I see a lot of similarities with:

iii “If, while he is examining the danger in those thoughts, there still arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then he should try to forget those thoughts and should not give attention to them. When he tries to forget those thoughts and does not give attention to them, then any evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion are abandoned in him and subside. With the abandoning of them his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. Just as a man with good eyes who did not want to see forms that had come within range of sight would either shut his eyes or look away, so too…when a bhikkhu tries to forget those thoughts and does not give attention to them … his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated.

First It must be admitted that this is actually something that the Buddha taught. You can get the mind quieted, single and in samadhi by not looking at those thoughts and concentrating on some other theme (even if one could even say that only a wholesome theme is valid). But this is, as it is clearly explained in MN20, an inferior kind of replacement of unwholesomes thoughts, the Buddha prescribes the evaluation of the drawbacks of unwholesome thoughts as the highest and best entrance point of Jhana for non-realized beings, because that kind of entrance can strenghten disenchantment and dispassion and it is actually the one he used in MN19.

What strikes me is that we have MN19,MN20 (And parallels MA101/MA102) that clearly indicates the preferred way for the Buddha to suggested way to the higher mind, which is to work on wisdom thanks to the discernment between the two kinds of thoughts (isn't it Dhamma Vicaya after all? Discernment?). MA102 (better than MN19 I think, but if we add MN66, MN78, MN125 and the others the picture is clear in both fields) abundantly narrates how this happens in practice and at the same time we have a lot of passages that directly links wisdom reasoning and remembrance of Dhamma (the cultivation of wholesome vitakka) with the attainment of the first Jhana in which wholesome vitakka is present and it is abandoned when you're ready to enter the second Jhana with noble silence for even more rest and peace.

It is interesting that in MA117 we have also a more expanded narration of the first Jhana of the Buddha as a teen and it is clearly linked as thoughts of renunciation while inside in first jhana:

I also recall how, long ago, I saw farmers resting in their fields. I went to the base of a rose-apple tree and sat down cross-legged. Secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from evil and unwholesome states, I entered and abided in the first absorption, which is with VITAKKA and VICARA, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion.
I thought, “Unlearned ignorant worldlings are themselves subject to disease, not exempt from disease. On seeing other people become sick,
they feel disgust and slight them as undesirable and unpleasant, not observing their own [condition].”
Again, I thought, (...)
Again, I thought, (...)
Unlearned ignorant worldlings are proud, conceited, and become neg-ligent due to being without disease. Due to sensual desires their ignorance
grows and they do not practice the holy life. Unlearned ignorant worldlings are proud, conceited, and become negligent due to being [youthful].
Because of sensual desires their ignorance grows and they do not practice the holy life. Unlearned ignorant worldlings are proud, conceited, and
become negligent due to being alive. Due to sensual desires their ignorance grows and they do not practice the holy life.

Of course one can resolve by saying that he exited first jhana after the . without telling us. Just like I can say "I went into the shower. I soaped myself and washed me well. Then I washed my hair with shampoo and rinsed my hairs from the shampoo" and one can rightly ask me the question "you were inside the shower or outside it when you soaped yourself?".

[atipattoh]

Hi,
Rearranging these in AN9.34

Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.

Into

{ Arousing -> sensual } -> { agreeable, pleasant } -> { likable, desirable }

Arousing -> sensual --> 5 senses ayatana (kāmaguṇā)
Agreeable, pleasant --> kāmasukhā
Likable, desirable --> Kāmacchanda

Arousing comes from external object
MN80 Vekhanasasutta

The pleasure and happiness that arises from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure.

Yaṁ kho, kaccāna, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ idaṁ vuccati kāmasukhaṁ.

So there is the saying: ‘From the senses comes sensual pleasure. From sensual pleasure comes the best kind of sensual pleasure, which is said to be the best thing there.’”

Iti kāmehi kāmasukhaṁ, kāmasukhā kāmaggasukhaṁ tattha aggamakkhāyatī”ti.

I don’t see how it is possible to read kāmehi kāmasukhaṁ as B Bodhi translated, “Thus sensual pleasure (arises) through sensual pleasures”; when follows by "kāmasukhā kāmaggasukhaṁ", make B Bodhi's translation on very strange. Here, kāmehi does not appear to be sensual pleasure, tather, "sensual pleasure (arises) through senses".

Yes, sensual pleasures cease. I don’t disagree. But nowhere does it say that the āyatana (senses) cease

Yes, it doesn’t says all six; but combination of the sutta I link to in my first post plus MN80, does point to 5 sense bases cease.
6 -> 5 kāmehi + 1 { dhammehi : akusalehi 0.5 (unwholesome mind object) + kusala 0.5 (wholesome mind object) }

Thus, kāmehi is rather refer to the whole string, { Arousing -> sensual } -> { agreeable, pleasant } -> { likable, desirable } of the 5 senses, that is kāmaguṇā, the 5 strands of kāma, that cease.

Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā,
...
Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
Kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā—

Piyarūpā, enticing materiality, that appear after desirable in all 5 bases, and that “From the senses comes sensual pleasure.”, then there should be no 5 senses stimuli for no sensual pleasure to arise.
These 5 bases, each is strand of cord of sensual, that each, if splits to two segments
Arousing -> sensual -> pleasant
Enticing materiality -> (desirable, likable)
Enticing materiality looks interesting isn't it. It appears to say something happen internally.

The sutta that Mike link to, MN99

Rapture that depends on the five kinds of sensual stimulation is like a fire that depends on grass and logs as fuel.
Seyyathāpi, māṇava, tiṇakaṭṭhupādānaṁ paṭicca aggi jalati tathūpamāhaṁ, māṇava, imaṁ pītiṁ vadāmi yāyaṁ pīti pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca.
Rapture that’s apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities is like a fire that doesn’t depend on grass and logs as fuel.
Seyyathāpi, māṇava, nissaṭṭhatiṇakaṭṭhupādāno aggi jalati tathūpamāhaṁ, māṇava, imaṁ pītiṁ vadāmi yāyaṁ pīti aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi.

And what is rapture that’s apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities?
Katamā ca, māṇava, pīti aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi?

It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, māṇava, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

This is rapture that’s apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities.
Ayampi kho, māṇava, pīti aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi.

Arousing comes from external object. And these 5 kāmaguna cease, as the fire "doesn’t depend on grass and logs as fuel". Practically, how is that possible for no object for burning, yet there is fire; and this metaphor is used for rapture. Strange isn't it. Not exactly. Here it says kāmaguṇā, does not include the sixth, "stimuli" from "external" mind base.

So, if the 5 bases cease, i don't see how walking is possible during "enter and remain" in Jhana. Skillful in mastery of entering and exiting, is then a different story.

~~ metta ~~~

[auto]

..

kāmaguṇa(kg) is spoken of when mind is empty of greed, hate and delusion. Only then kg is equated with the greed.
kāmaguṇa is factor of purity(visuddhidhamma) what relies on the emptiness of mind(quite secluded from sensual pleasures..). It is so, when senses become stimulated(replete) before consciousness is alighted(established).

Fire(object) isn't kāmaguṇa. The danger of getting burnt is kg. Danger should be foreseen(anticipated).
When renouncing, one should anticipate the danger of mates, wine, money etc - these are the objects of kg, that is one is biting(vitakkavicara) and at the same time avoid alighting consciousness(quite secluded).
And if returning to lesser life(for real) because of these objects, it means one is being afraid of the dangers(not pro-copulation, but afraid).
an6.26, an4.122, mn67

[Ceisiwr]

If jhana were about a shutdown of senses, it doesn’t seem as though it would matter what degree of development towards renunciation, non-ill will and non-cruelty has been developed thoroughly beforehand. According to MN 19, jhana is available on account of knowledge, not a shutdown or a blankness of the senses. I’m sure it makes more sense to say that for the formless dimensions, but not in regards to what needs to be in place for jhana to even be available. My point overall is that your argument doesn’t take this preliminary work into consideration as the reason that sensuality and unwholesome states are no longer an immediate threat even before jhana is discerned.

I'm still not quite getting the argument here. You are asserting that to propose an absorbed state for Jhāna means negating or making superfluous the intention towards renunciation etc. I don't see how that follows at all. Certainly teachers both ancient and modern, such as Ajahn Brahm or Ajahn Anālayo, consider them to be important pre-requisites. You say that it wouldn't matter, but you haven't shown that it wouldn't matter.

[Ceisiwr]

What strikes me is that we have MN19,MN20 (And parallels MA101/MA102) that clearly indicates the preferred way for the Buddha to suggested way to the higher mind, which is to work on wisdom thanks to the discernment between the two kinds of thoughts (isn't it Dhamma Vicaya after all? Discernment?). MA102 (better than MN19 I think, but if we add MN66, MN78, MN125 and the others the picture is clear in both fields) abundantly narrates how this happens in practice and at the same time we have a lot of passages that directly links wisdom reasoning and remembrance of Dhamma (the cultivation of wholesome vitakka) with the attainment of the first Jhana in which wholesome vitakka is present and it is abandoned when you're ready to enter the second Jhana with noble silence for even more rest and peace.

This of course would mean there can be no insight at all when in any Jhāna, according to an absorbed view of things, or from the 2nd Jhāna onwards for the non-absorbed position. I certainly agree that there is no insight to be had whilst actually in Jhāna.

[Ceisiwr]

The full verse here reads:

Sankapparāgo purisassa kāmo
Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke
Sankapparāgo purisassa kāmo
Titthanti citrāni tath'eva loke
Ath'ettha dhīrā vinayanti chandam.

Sensual desires are not the various (or pretty) things in the world.
Lustful intention is a man's sensual desire.
The various (or pretty) things just stand there in the world.
But the wise dispel desire herein.

At least that's how I'd translate it.

"Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke"

"Na te [demonstrative pronoun] kāmā [noun] yāni [relative pronoun] citrāni [adjective] loke."

"Not those [demonstrative pronoun] kāmā [noun] whatever [relative pronoun] are pretty [adjective] in the world."

"Not those kāmā whatever are pretty in the world"

Where are you getting the "things" from in your translation, when kāmā are the subject of the sentence?

[Coëmgenu]

Is "citrāni" not "the pretty things?" I'm not a Pāli whiz, i.e. I'm not exceptionally qualified to comment on Pāli grammar, but it looks like a noun to me.

The copula is dropped. That gives us "Not those kāmā [which are] whatever are the beauties in the world." "Beauties" and "pretty things" are arguably semantically near-identical.

That could be wrong, nay likely is.

[Ceisiwr]

Is "citrāni" not "the pretty things?" I'm not a Pāli whiz, i.e. I'm not exceptionally qualified to comment on Pāli grammar, but it looks like a noun to me.

Citrāni is an adjective.

[Coëmgenu]

Adjectives in Pali are notoriously fraught. Many don't believe that either Pali or Sanskrit have true adjectives at all. On what grounds do you cleanly label it an adjective and not a noun?

[SDC]

If jhana were about a shutdown of senses, it doesn’t seem as though it would matter what degree of development towards renunciation, non-ill will and non-cruelty has been developed thoroughly beforehand. According to MN 19, jhana is available on account of knowledge, not a shutdown or a blankness of the senses. I’m sure it makes more sense to say that for the formless dimensions, but not in regards to what needs to be in place for jhana to even be available. My point overall is that your argument doesn’t take this preliminary work into consideration as the reason that sensuality and unwholesome states are no longer an immediate threat even before jhana is discerned.

You are asserting that to propose an absorbed state for Jhāna means negating or making superfluous the intention towards renunciation etc.

Yes, your concept of a shutdown neglects the knowledge that jhana is available on account of. Did you read MN 19? All that work to incline the mind in a wholesome direction, to get the mind to the point of unification, secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, and now that jhana is available, it becomes about senses shutting down? How does that type of experience follow that type of work? It just doesn’t make much sense. The mind is unified and safe, what is the point of trying to shutdown senses? The danger has been surmounted through virtue and restraint.

Now if you want to say that the five sense have been surmounted in the sense that they are no longer in a condition to hinder the mind, I’d have no issue with that whatsoever, but to say they have shutdown isn’t a testament to any development - all that seem to indicate is that being essentially unconscious is safe and pleasurable.

What do you think about SN 36.11?

…Then, bhikkhu, I have also taught the successive cessation of formations. For one who has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. For one who has attained the second jhana, thought and examination have ceased. For one who has attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. For one who has attained the fourth jhana, in-breathing and out-breathing have ceased. For one who has attained the base of the infinity of space, the perception of form has ceased. For one who has attained the base of the infinity of consciousness, the perception pertaining to the base of the infinity of space has ceased. For one who has attained the base of nothingness, the perception pertaining to the base of the infinity of consciousness has ceased. For one who has attained the base of neither-perception-nor-nonperception, the perception pertaining to the base of nothingness has ceased. For one who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased. For a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed, lust has ceased, hatred has ceased, delusion has ceased.

It just seems to me that jhana is far more than this idea of senses being shutdown. There are features of jhana that have to do with sankhara coming to a halt in regards to speech, movement of thought, and breathing, but not a shutdown of perception - at least not at first. If one were to turn the mind in a different direction towards these conditions - as described in MN 111 and even MN 121 - there is quite a bit to understand as the mind becomes more and more established in jhana. Again, what do the five senses being shutdown have to do with any of these features of jhana?

Taking these suttas into consideration, it doesn’t seem too odd that the Buddha would describe walking in jhana in AN 3.63.

And I don’t disagree that jhana is not insight, but aside from what needs to be understood for jhana to be available, there are things to understand about jhana as it gained. Just doesn’t seem like shutdown of senses is an objective, nor a feature that would matter.

And I apologize for these haphazard posts. Lots going on here.