'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

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mabw
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'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by mabw »

Good day,

Referring to the article:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el006.html
we find under the heading of Equanimity, the following passage:
What, now, is the nature of that insight? It is the clear understanding of how all these vicissitudes of life originate, and of our own true nature. We have to understand that the various experiences we undergo result from our kamma — our actions in thought, word and deed — performed in this life and in earlier lives. Kamma is the womb from which we spring (kamma-yoni), and whether we like it or not, we are the inalienable "owners" of our deeds (kamma-ssaka). But as soon as we have performed any action, our control over it is lost: it forever remains with us and inevitably returns to us as our due heritage (kamma-dayada). Nothing that happens to us comes from an "outer" hostile world foreign to ourselves; everything is the outcome of our own mind and deeds. Because this knowledge frees us from fear, it is the first basis of equanimity. When, in everything that befalls us we only meet ourselves, why should we fear?
Just wanted to confirm, is this statement accurate, given the concept of Niyamas ? My reading of this sentence is "Everything is due to kamma", which learned posters here have posted support that the Buddha says is not the case.
SarathW
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by SarathW »

Can someone find what Sutta says?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Mr. Seek
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by Mr. Seek »

Pretty sure such conclusive statements are disproven and are talked against in the suttas, e.g. not everything we experience right now is because of past karma or is predetermined.

Don't remember exact references but since it's a sectarian view I imagine it can be found in DN.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

I would say it is broadly accurate, in that everything you experience is a result of past and present karma. It does not have to be fatalistic because what we experience is not simply due to past kamma.

Your past kamma conditions what world you are born in, your body and tendencies etc and the range of potential experiences.
Present kamma is action and choices that determines what you do with this, the actual experiences you have from the potentials and how you choose to shape your world and react to it.

Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, this word, 'becoming, becoming' — to what extent is there becoming?"

"Ananda, if there were no kamma ripening in the sensuality-property, would sensuality-becoming be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a lower property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.

"If there were no kamma ripening in the form-property, would form-becoming be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a middling property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.

"If there were no kamma ripening in the formless-property, would formless-becoming be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a refined property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. This is how there is becoming."


https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html


"You’ll notice in the chant we had just now on the four sublime attitudes: “May all beings be happy. May all beings be freed from their suffering. May all beings not be deprived of the good fortune they have attained.” It’s “may, may, may.” But then the fourth one is not like that. It’s a statement of fact."


All living being are owners of their actions, heirs of their actions, born from their actions, related to their actions, have their actions as their refuge. Whatever actions they do for good or ill, of that they will be the heir.



https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Medit ... n0013.html
Last edited by Cause_and_Effect on Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
BrokenBones
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by BrokenBones »

"A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who — whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions as their arbitrator. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Dhammanando
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by Dhammanando »

mabw wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:43 pm My reading of this sentence is "Everything is due to kamma", which learned posters here have posted support that the Buddha says is not the case.
Some would argue that Nyanaponika's statement is contradicted in the Buddha's discourse to Moliyasīvaka.

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.21/en/bodhi

On the other hand, it's not contradicted if the said discourse is read according to the commentarial understanding.

To summarize the two readings of the sutta:

Sutta-onlyist Theravadins

Wrong view: all painful feelings arise from the ripening of past kamma.

Right view: some painful feelings arise from the ripening of past kamma. Others arise from other causes and have nothing to do with past kamma.

Classical Theravadins

Wrong view: all painful feelings arise solely from the ripening of past kamma.

Right view: some painful feelings arise solely from the ripening of past kamma. Others arise from past kamma operating in conjunction with other causes (i.e., bile disorders, phlegm disorders, etc.).
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
BrokenBones
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by BrokenBones »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:09 am
mabw wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:43 pm My reading of this sentence is "Everything is due to kamma", which learned posters here have posted support that the Buddha says is not the case.
Some would argue that Nyanaponika's statement is contradicted in the Buddha's discourse to Moliyasīvaka.

But Nyanaponika's statement seems to be in rough accordance with the sutta I quoted.

The Buddha's discourse to Moliyasīvaka seems to be warning against fatalism rather than dismissing the owning of & being heir to our deeds.
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Dhammanando
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by Dhammanando »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:10 am But Nyanaponika's statement seems to be in rough accordance with the sutta I quoted.
I hadn't yet read your post at the time I was replying.

However, your sutta quote seems to me to be quite neutral on the question raised in the OP. That is, the proposition, "Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir," is logically compatible with both Nyanaponika's claim that everything which befalls us is vipāka and also with the contrary view that only part of what befalls us is so. The quote doesn't say that we are the heirs of our kamma and nothing else, but nor does it rule out such a possibility.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
BrokenBones
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by BrokenBones »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:48 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:10 am But Nyanaponika's statement seems to be in rough accordance with the sutta I quoted.
I hadn't yet read your post at the time I was replying.

However, your sutta quote seems to me to be quite neutral on the question raised in the OP. That is, the proposition, "Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir," is logically compatible with both Nyanaponika's claim that everything which befalls us is vipāka and also with the contrary view that only part of what befalls us is so. The quote doesn't say that we are the heirs of our kamma and nothing else, but nor does it rule out such a possibility.
"A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who — whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions as their arbitrator. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I take it that it doesn't necessarily mean that everything that happens or feeling that one experiences is kamma... just that an individuals light & dark actions will always have consequences.
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Dhammanando
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by Dhammanando »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:04 am I take it that it doesn't necessarily mean that everything that happens or feeling that one experiences is kamma... just that an individuals light & dark actions will always have consequences.
I agree. And as such it neither supports nor contradicts Nyanaponika's claim.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Assaji
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by Assaji »

Good day,
What, now, is the nature of that insight? It is the clear understanding of how all these vicissitudes of life originate, and of our own true nature. We have to understand that the various experiences we undergo result from our kamma — our actions in thought, word and deed — performed in this life and in earlier lives. Kamma is the womb from which we spring (kamma-yoni), and whether we like it or not, we are the inalienable "owners" of our deeds (kamma-ssaka). But as soon as we have performed any action, our control over it is lost: it forever remains with us and inevitably returns to us as our due heritage (kamma-dayada). Nothing that happens to us comes from an "outer" hostile world foreign to ourselves; everything is the outcome of our own mind and deeds. Because this knowledge frees us from fear, it is the first basis of equanimity. When, in everything that befalls us we only meet ourselves, why should we fear?
This reminds me of the words by Marcus Aurelius:
46. Nothing can happen to any human being which is not an incident appropriate to man, nor to an ox which is not appropriate to oxen, nor to a vine which is not appropriate to vines, nor to a stone which is not peculiar to a stone. If then that happens to each which is both customary and natural, why should you be discontented with your lot? For the Universal Nature did not bring to you what you could not bear.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Medi ... nus/Book_8
Ontheway
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by Ontheway »

Just my thoughts on Kamma.

In AN 5.57,

https://suttacentral.net/an5.57/en/bodh ... ript=latin
"Bhikkhus, there are these five themes that should often be reflected upon by a woman or a man, by a householder or one gone forth. What five? ....

.....And for the sake of what benefit should a woman or a man, a householder or one gone forth, often reflect thus: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do’? People engage in misconduct by body, speech, and mind. But when one often reflects upon this theme, such misconduct is either completely abandoned or diminished. It is for the sake of this benefit that a woman or a man, a householder or one gone forth, should often reflect thus: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.’"
Yet, in SN12.46,
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.46/en/bod ... ript=latin
Brahmin: "How is it, Master Gotama: is the one who acts the same as the one who experiences the result?”

Bhagava: “‘The one who acts is the same as the one who experiences the result’: this, brahmin, is one extreme.”

Brahmin: “Then, Master Gotama, is the one who acts one, and the one who experiences the result another?”

Bhagava: “‘The one who acts is one, and the one who experiences the result is another’: this, brahmin, is the second extreme.
So, in one sutta, the Blessed One encouraged us to reflect "I am the owner of my Kamma". Another sutta, the Master showed the view that "he who acts is he who reaps" is wrong. But does that contradictory? Not so.

For the Buddha is a Vibhajjavadin, an Analyser, who speaks not adhering to extreme.

Mahākammavibhaṅgasutta (MN136)
“I heard and learned this, friend Samiddhi, from the monk Gotama’s lips: ‘Bodily kammas are vain, verbal kammas are vain, only mental kammas are true.’ But there is actually that attainment having entered upon which nothing (of result of kammas) is felt at all.”

“Not so, friend Potaliputta, do not say thus, do not misrepresent the Blessed One; it is not good to misrepresent the Blessed One; the Blessed One would not say so: ‘Bodily kammas are vain, verbal kammas are vain, only mental kammas are true.’ And there is actually that attainment having entered upon which nothing (of result of kammas) is felt at all.”

“How long is it since you went forth, friend Samiddhi?”

“Not long, friend, three years.”

“There now, what shall we say to the elder bhikkhus, when the young bhikkhu fancies the Master is to be defended thus? After doing intentional kamma, friend Samiddhi, by way of body, speech or mind, what does one feel (of its result)?”

“After doing an intentional kamma, friend Potaliputta, by way of body, speech or mind, one feels suffering (as its result).”

Then neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the words of the venerable Samiddhi, the wanderer Potaliputta got up from his seat and went away.

Soon after the wanderer Potaliputta had gone, the venerable Samiddhi went to the venerable Ananda and exchanged greetings with him, and when the courteous and amiable talk was finished, he sat down at one side. When he had done so, he told the venerable Ananda all his conversation with the wanderer Potaliputta.

When this was said, the venerable Ananda told him: “Friend Samiddhi, this conversation should be told to the Blessed One. Come, let us go to the Blessed One, and having done so, let us tell him about this. As he answers, so we shall bear it in mind.”

“Even so, friend,” the venerable Samiddhi replied.

Then they went together to the Blessed One, and after paying homage to him, they sat down at one side. When they had done so, the venerable Ananda told the Blessed One all the venerable Samiddhi’s conversation with the wanderer Potaliputta.

When this was said, the Blessed One told the venerable Ananda:

“I do not even know the wanderer by sight, Ananda. How could there have been such a conversation? The wanderer Potaliputta’s question ought to have been answered after analyzing it, but this misguided man Samiddhi answered it without qualification.

When this was said, the venerable Udayin said to the Blessed One: “‘But, venerable sir, supposing when the venerable Samiddhi spoke, he was referring to this, namely, ‘Whatever is felt is suffering.’”

Then the Blessed One addressed the venerable Ananda: “See, Ananda, how this misguided man Udayin interferes.
I knew, Ananda, that this misguided man Udayin would unreasonably interfere now. To begin with it was the three kinds of feeling that were asked about by the wanderer Potaliputta. If, when this misguided man Samiddhi was asked, he had answered the wanderer Potaliputta thus: ‘After doing an intentional kamma by way of body, speech and mind (whose result is) to be felt as pleasure, he feels pleasure; after doing an intentional kamma by way of body, speech and mind (whose result is) to be felt as pain, he feels pain; after doing an intentional kamma by way of body, speech and mind (whose result is) to be felt as neither-pain-nor-pleasure, he feels neither-pain-nor-pleasure’ — by answering him thus, Ananda, the misguided man Samiddhi would have given the wanderer Potaliputta the right answer. Besides, Ananda, who are the foolish thoughtless wanderers of other sects that they will understand the Tathagata’s Great Exposition of Kamma? (But) if you, Ananda, would listen to the Tathagata expounding the Great Exposition of Kamma (you might understand it).
The Buddha, when expounding the AN 5.57 discourse, 'I' was a conventional term, intended for normal usage. When comes to SN 12.46, there the Teacher explained in term of ultimate sense.
For Buddha said "One should not insist on local language, and one should not override normal usage." (Araṇavibhaṅgasutta MN139)

Hence it was also said in Visuddhimagga,
The two together: since any given states are produced without interrupting the [cause-fruit] continuity of any given combination of conditions, the whole expression “dependent origination” (paticca-samuppada) represents the middle way , which rejects the doctrines, “He who acts is he who reaps” and “One acts while another reaps” (S II 20), and which is the proper way described thus, “Not insisting on local language and not overriding normal usage” (M III 234).
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
asahi
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by asahi »

If you now deliberately pinch your hand for example , that pain feeling is not due to past lives generated kamma .
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Kjigme
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by Kjigme »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:09 am
To summarize the two readings of the sutta:

Sutta-onlyist Theravadins

Wrong view: all painful feelings arise from the ripening of past kamma.

Right view: some painful feelings arise from the ripening of past kamma. Others arise from other causes and have nothing to do with past kamma.

Classical Theravadins

Wrong view: all painful feelings arise solely from the ripening of past kamma.

Right view: some painful feelings arise solely from the ripening of past kamma. Others arise from past kamma operating in conjunction with other causes (i.e., bile disorders, phlegm disorders, etc.).
But what about pain itself? The feeling ,sensation, of pain? The existence of pain. I don't know if I am making sense.
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Buddha, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Dhamma, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Sangha, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!

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Dhammanando
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Re: 'The Four Sublime States' by Nyanaponika Thera

Post by Dhammanando »

Kjigme wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:46 pm
But what about pain itself? The feeling ,sensation, of pain? The existence of pain. I don't know if I am making sense.
Can you be more expansive? It's not clear to me what you're asking.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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