Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

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mjaviem
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:52 pm Emptiness, Nothingness and Signless.
That's not specifically the realization of the third noble truth. The realization of the third NT is the cessation of suffering. The cessation can only be realized in the present. If the remainderless cessation is going to happen in the future the realization is not of the cessation but of something correlated. In this case you realize something correlated and expect with 100 percent assurance the remainderless cessation. Arahants don't expect this remainderless cessation, their realization is of present final release.

(And I would say voidness instead of nothingness to not sound like an annihilationist)
... householders, you should train yourselves thus: ‘How can we from time to time enter and dwell in the rapture of solitude?‘... —AN 5.176 Pītisutta.

Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:04 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:52 pm Emptiness, Nothingness and Signless.
That's not specifically the realization of the third noble truth. The realization of the third NT is the cessation of suffering. The cessation can only be realized in the present. If the remainderless cessation is going to happen in the future the realization is not of the cessation but of something correlated. In this case you realize something correlated and expect with 100 percent assurance the remainderless cessation. Arahants don't expect this remainderless cessation, their realization is of present final release.

(And I would say voidness instead of nothingness to not sound like an annihilationist)
“And, Venerables, what is the noble truth of the cessation of dissatisfaction? The remainderless fading away, cessation, giving up, relinquishment, and release of that craving, without any further attachment to it. Venerables, this is called ‘the noble truth of the cessation of dissatisfaction.’

The 3rd Noble Truth is the cessation of craving, through which they know that there is freedom from suffering. It is the realisation of nibbāna. Emptiness, Nothingness and Signless are all aspects of nibbāna. They are all one in the same, essentially. When there is no more craving then there is Emptiness, Nothingness and Signlessness. Likewise abandoning craving and realising nibbāna can be achieved through Emptiness, Nothingness or the Signless.

Anicca - Signless
Dukkha - Nothingness.
Anatta - Emptiness

Regarding "voidness" that would be more apt for Emptiness (suññatā) rather than Nothingness (ākiñcañña).
to not sound like an annihilationist
There isn't anything wrong in sounding like an annihilationist. Annihilationism, at least in the Vedic or Śramaṇa sense, is a fine doctrine as far as non-Buddhist Dharma goes.

"He understands as it really is: ‘Form will be exterminated’ … ‘Feeling will be exterminated’ … ‘Perception will be exterminated’ … ‘Volitional formations will be exterminated’ … ‘Consciousness will be exterminated.’

“With the extermination of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness, that bhikkhu, resolving thus: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me,’ can cut off the lower fetters.”

“Resolving thus, venerable sir, a bhikkhu can cut off the lower fetters. But how should one know, how should one see, for the immediate destruction of the taints to occur?”

“Here, bhikkhu, the uninstructed worldling becomes frightened over an unfrightening matter. For this is frightening to the uninstructed worldling: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me.’ But the instructed noble disciple does not become frightened over an unfrightening matter. For this is not frightening to the noble disciple: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me.’


https://suttacentral.net/sn22.55/en/bodhi


(8) “Bhikkhus, of the speculative views held by outsiders, this is the foremost, namely: ‘I might not be and it might not be mine; I shall not be, and it will not be mine.’ For it can be expected that one who holds such a view will not be unrepelled by existence and will not be repelled by the cessation of existence." - AN 10.29
“When your last breath arrives, Grammar can do nothing.”

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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by mjaviem »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:31 pm Me and Ceisiwr have learned vastly different kinds of Buddhism...
I' know you did. This is good. Keep learning and helping others.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:31 pm ... I think it would be more correct to say that, in traditional Śrāvaka Buddhism, Gnosis of the end of suffering is the end of suffering in the here-and-now. Arhats do not "await" Parinibbāna.
...
Let's suppose an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person releases a stone he is holding in his hand but the stone doesn't fall. He would run into perplexity and astonishment as he was expecting the stone to hit the ground. But not an arahant. An arahant wouldn't be perplexed and astonished as he has found that all dhammas are impermanent and subject to change.

Let's suppose now an instructed in the same dhamma as Ceisiwr's and that of traditional Sravaka buddhism finds there is no final liberation upon parinibbana. He would run into perplexity and astonishment as he was expecting the embers to finally go cold. But not an arahant because they do not await parinibbana and final liberation with no remainder as he has found all dhammas are impermanent and subject to change.

What kind of gnosis is that which does not include expectations, is the end of suffering but at the same time there still remains a little of suffering? This kind of dhamma doesn't seem to be the Buddha dhamma.
... householders, you should train yourselves thus: ‘How can we from time to time enter and dwell in the rapture of solitude?‘... —AN 5.176 Pītisutta.

Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:04 pm Arahants don't expect this remainderless cessation, their realization is of present final release.
can't say what they expect
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by nirodh27 »

Hi Ceisiwr,

Rephrasing words of the Buddha is not an argument, since I've talked about an evolution of the Buddhist message in time with different understandings and evolution of terms and ideas. Still, I think that you've responded my underlying question.
When he does though he always defines them.
Well, not always it seems, for example Vitakka&Vicara in Jhana :reading: . And doubts about the meaning of the words are there also for Sankharas and other terms even if they are defined in the Nikayas, a sign that evolution of concepts in time happened (or the Buddha forgot to fully define, which seems unlikely, the problem is that we are not sure that we have the earliest definition/usage of him). You speak as the Nikaya being the word of the Buddha himself. Seems highly unlikely given what we know about history of religions. Definitions might come from earlier or later strata, early to the source or later additions. We can see how some differences are striking in the parallels, but the problems and big divergences are usually found at the beginning of the religion. If we read the sage at peace strata with the earlier strata that presents the sage at peace ideal is one thing, if we use later strata of course everything can be rephrased even if one can question the results of that.
Birth and death are an "acquisition problem", in that grasping is a condition for being born and dying. I'm not sure what you mean about illness. It's part of the definition of the 1st Truth, amongst the things that are abandoned forever when someone awakens. How does one psychologically abandon rabies when awakened?
The four noble truths can be early or later strata. There's plenty of discussion about it in academy. I don't think that in the octads or the way beyond the problem of illness is a problem that the Buddha even try to resolve, I haven't even found the word and btw is not even there in DO. The problem of old-age is presented usually like a problem of craving, of not wanting to lose acquisitions (and that brings Dukkha) and trying ways that have Dukkha (uncertainty) ingraned (like sacrifices or, alternatively said, any view of self that is the thing that the Buddha bringed to the table as new and not teached at the time).
Because he knows that birth doesn't make sense, can't come to be, without craving and clinging. They stand in a conditional relation with each other.
Craving for existence (that is one of the problem of the earlier strata, but actually also) is in conditional relation (a direct cause) to Dukkha, because it brings fear, uncertainty, hopes that might get deluded, it is in the opposite direction of peace, equanimity, indifference. With the cessation of that craving, you can see the cessation of Dukkha here-and-now, visible.

When you desire a steak, when you end that desire you will end that dukkha (from the uncertainty of the world and the stress you have to bear to have it) that is inevitably linked to it, you will not end the object of that desire, you will not encounter it in your mind as a desire, but that doesn't guarantee you that you will not eat the steak. Maybe someone will force you to eat the steak nonethless.

When you desire a promotion, when you end that desire you will end that dukkha from anicca that is inevitably linked to it, you will not end the possibility of being promoted in the future, you will not think about it or thought about it without Dukkha, but that changes nothing for the fact that you can get a promotion. Even if now you work only for duty and money now, maybe you will get promoted nonethless.

When you desire to not get-reborn, what you can end is the dukkha linked to the prospect of not obtaining end of rebirth/experience, but that doesn't leave out the fact that you could get the six senses nonethless just in the same way that you have now and you will lose the memories (just like it happened in you current birth now) and so for the Arahant also the knowledge of the Dhamma and the ability to get Nibbana at will could be lost as well.

You say that with the ending of craving you will actually end the possibility not (only) to stop the arising of the Dukkha that craving for existence brings (the thoughts and grief related to the prospect of Jarāmaraṇa), but actual future existence and birth (a thing that is not even demostrated as factual and true, but let's even suppose it is). I can't see how the two things correlates (the problem is even harder because there's no data to begin with).
the Arahants do not replace faith/confidence/trust (saddhā) with knowledge but rather have saddhā and knowledge. Perhaps then ultimate knowledge regarding birth and death being totally done away with is for Buddha's only, something the Arahants still trust in the Buddha for.
Well, actually this is revealing, even if you have not married this view. Because this view is surely not the ending of the second dart Dukkha here-and-now, since you have an acquisition of a view from another and you hope that it will work. This is something that mjaviem correcty noted.

You have to KNOW that you will not get reborn in the future to end the second dart now, it is just like Coëmgenu says. Else you will have not crossed over doubt and, since you know that life is a tumor, a dart, an affliction, the fact that the Buddha might be right or wrong could cross your mind and that would be stress, because you have a view about the world being Dukkha and you might encounter it again in the next life. "This is my last birth! Or at least I hope so :embarassed: ". Other religious leaders would have simply mocked and scoffed the Buddha and the Dhamma, that is a teaching not a revelation.

Also, that seems to mean that the Dhamma is not fully visible here-and-now for the Arahant, which seems contrary to the teaching of every strata one can imagine, is practically everywhere.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:46 pm Traditional Śrāvaka Buddhism is not full of empty promises. It is full of the conviction and experiential knowledge of attaining release, the same knowledge that allowed Ven Śāriputra to knowingly and truthfully proclaim "The cessation of bhava is Nibbāna." He was not full of expectations that only lead to the arising of more subsequent suffering. Having just known, having dwelt in bhavanirodha just moments before, he had the courage of his convictions in a way that a worldling cannot imagine. He knew that future birth, aging, and death was ended; that further acquisition of aggregates, and associated pain and suffering, was ended; and it was blissful for him.
This is the only possible approach without mantaining an uncertainty that will bring doubt and Dukkha in this life. You (the Arahant) need to see for yourself with all certainty, especially since you boldy declare it to the world. But if it is a view, a logic like "he knows that birth doesn't make sense, can't come to be, without craving and clinging" that is simply a view, a deduction and the logic behind that view should be intelligible, especially if we take the sabba as the framework of this view as SN prompts us to do that to utter meaningful sentences.

If it is a vision or a gut-feeling, is is the same like the one of a Christian that believes with all certainty that will go to paradise. A vision + a view presents the same problems, both if it is the vision that informs the view (that seems what is implied in MN19, first the vision, then the correlating view. I have to check if there's a parallel in MA102 btw) or the view that informs the vision (which is something that happens all the time in religions, vision are in the framework of the peculiar religion tenets and figures).

If it is a different way of knowing (and it must be something that is without faith, else there is uncertainty here-and-now and that is dukkha) I would like to know what type of knowing could it be, I can think only of a method unknown to humanity, a sort of miracle.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Coëmgenu »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:31 pmLet's suppose now an instructed in the same dhamma as Ceisiwr's and that of traditional Sravaka buddhism finds there is no final liberation upon parinibbana. He would run into perplexity and astonishment as he was expecting the embers to finally go cold.
Earlier, when I quoted the Nibbānadhātusutta at Iti 44, you said, "Those do not sound like the words of an arahant. It seems the words from someone describing the 'experience' of an arahant." I would suggest that "He would run into perplexity and astonishment" similarly sounds like someone describing/imagining the experience of Bodhi, and doesn't sound like an Arhat's experience to me. That being said, I think you are still treating the Gnosis of the Arhats in Śrāvaka Buddhism, that gnostic apprehension of "the Holy Life is fulfilled," as a kind of mundane theoretical knowledge that could be true or could be untrue. I used Gnosis with a capital G to stress the transformative and world-transcending power of the body of wisdom that is attained. This isn't a matter of "You, Arhat, will receive a pony for your 53rd birthday. It will be a great pony, and you will definitely love it." It's not a matter of "looking forward" to something to come. The Gnosis is here, in the so-called here-and-now, and it is liberation.

The Parinirvāṇa-at-death aspect of Śrāvaka Buddhism is something that the Mahāyāna polemicizes against, albeit in utterly different ways than the posters in this thread.
3. Even according to the approach of those who speak of the unconditioned as an object of knowledge for a cognition which arises out of meditation, it is not a unitary (entity), because these (unconditioned entities) would be related to a cognition which has phases (of before and after).
(Madhyamakālaṁkāra on "Neither unity nor diversity," stanza 3, translation K. Lipman)

Whether Nibbāna being a dhamma complicates its metaphysical unity or not, according to Theravāda, after/during Parinibbāna, the sage ceases to make contact with the discrete "real thing" that is Nibbāna. That's another point of controversy in traditional Buddhism, whether this constitutes a "cessation of Nibbāna," which is of course an incoherent impossibility that any Theravādin would reject. The edges of Buddhist sects are fraught and serrated, which should come as no surprise, given the violence ubiquitous to Buddhist history, which is no stranger to holy wars, etc.

All these knifey polemics aside, my description not yours, the Gnosis of the Arhat in traditional Śrāvaka Buddhism is such that there is no "anticipated waiting" for the end of the "residue" of the body and mind.
Not the one and not another,
unending and impermanent --
of the many Buddhas' transformative teachings,
this is that sweet nectar's taste.

For if a Buddha is not born in the world,
or if the Buddhadharma is completely extinct,
all of the wisdom of the Pratyekabuddhas
would separately arise (from it).

(MMK XVIII.11-12 Madhyamakaśāstra T 1564.23c16)
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Coëmgenu »

atipattoh wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:16 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:46 pm AFAIK, it's an Udānavarga. Do you have any resources you know of on its dating that would put it that far up and would associate it with Vajrayāna?
There text was translated by 天息災
法集要頌經卷第四, 尊者法救集

西天中印度惹爛駄囉國密林寺三藏明教大師賜紫沙門臣天息災奉 詔譯

法集要頌經樂品第三十
天息災 is Devaśāntika, there was another name, 法賢, same person. Translation was made around CE988 to be more exact year that it got into the collection.

The fact that Devaśāntika decorate the translation compound follows tantra period, says much of where He comes from.
So do you think it's not an Udānavarga, or do you think that the translation is faulty? I'll be honest, I've never heard T213 described as a Tantric text nor have I heard it described as having significant Tantric influence or decoration. That doesn't mean it isn't or doesn't have them.
Not the one and not another,
unending and impermanent --
of the many Buddhas' transformative teachings,
this is that sweet nectar's taste.

For if a Buddha is not born in the world,
or if the Buddhadharma is completely extinct,
all of the wisdom of the Pratyekabuddhas
would separately arise (from it).

(MMK XVIII.11-12 Madhyamakaśāstra T 1564.23c16)
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by atipattoh »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:46 amSo do you think it's not an Udānavarga, or do you think that the translation is faulty? I'll be honest, I've never heard T213 described as a Tantric text nor have I heard it described as having significant Tantric influence or decoration. That doesn't mean it isn't or doesn't have them.
It could be Devaśāntika’s word or it could be added in later after his translation. The “beauty” is disrupted when it change from 2 lines to 3 lines. The link that i provide put it as remained in 2 lines, but it looks more suitable in 3s.
法身is dharma kaya. In 988, Buddhism in India was already very much a tantra period.

Compare the structure below with the link in earlier post that place 2 lines in each verse; 3 lines structure is more cohesive on last 3 verses, making it 2 verses. I changed the comma and fullstop.
勝負自然興,  竟不有所獲,
諸欲得樂壽,  能忍彼輕報。

忍者忍於人,  不忍處諸有,
諸欲得樂壽,  於惑而無惑。

惑者惑於人,  我斯無有惑,
諸欲得樂壽,  終己無結者。

當食於念食,如彼光音天,
恒以念為食,意身無所燒,
眾生見苦樂,聖法無損壞。

雖值觸樂跡,無跡焉有觸,
如苾芻在定,不著一切垢,
眾生遭苦樂,而不能覺知。
Furthermore, if the 眾生 part is omitted, the verses still stand.
當食於念食,如彼光音天,
恒以念為食,意身無所燒。

雖值觸樂跡,無跡焉有觸,
如苾芻在定,不著一切垢。
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Assaji »

Hi,
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:30 pm Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?
They do experience contact (phassa), as described in the Sallatha Sutta:
Sutavā ca kho bhikkhave ariyasāvako dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno na socati na kilamati na paridevati na urattāḷiṃ kandati na sammohaṃ āpajjati: so ekaṃ vedanaṃ vediyati kāyikaṃ, na cetasikaṃ.

Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when
touched
with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught.
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn ... .than.html
SDC wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:20 pm Contact has craving as its source:
SN 12.11 wrote: Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be. What four? The nutriment edible food, gross or subtle; second, contact; third, mental volition; fourth, consciousness. These are the four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be.

“Bhikkhus, these four kinds of nutriment have what as their source, what as their origin, from what are they born and produced? These four kinds of nutriment have craving as their source, craving as their origin; they are born and produced from craving.
Without craving - and more fundamentally - without ignorance, contact is without a source therefore the six sense base is no longer a necessary condition for contact. “The meeting of the three” is contact only when ignorance is present - the fact that things still appear has nothing to do with contact. Otherwise for the arahant it is phassanirodho, it has ceased, it will no longer grow and the mass of suffering is broken:
SN 35.155 wrote:…Bhikkhu, if one teaches the Dhamma for the purpose of revulsion towards the eye, for its fading away and cessation, one can be called a bhikkhu who is a speaker on the Dhamma. If one is practising for the purpose of revulsion towards the eye, for its fading away and cessation, one can be called a bhikkhu who is practising in accordance with the Dhamma. If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation, one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained Nibbāna in this very life.

“Bhikkhu, if one teaches the Dhamma for the purpose of revulsion towards the ear … for the purpose of revulsion towards the mind, for its fading away and cessation, one can be called a bhikkhu who is a speaker on the Dhamma. If one is practising for the purpose of revulsion towards the mind, for its fading away and cessation, one can be called a bhikkhu who is practising in accordance with the Dhamma. If, through revulsion towards the mind, through its fading away and cessation, one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained Nibbāna in this very life.”
This may also be of interest: SN 35.117
It seems like you understand the Conditioned Arising links as synchronous relationships? In such an interpretation of the above-quoted passage, edible food, contact, mental volition and consciousness would immediately cease upon the cessation of craving. Moreover, in a synchronous interpretation of the Conditioned Arising, with the cessation of ignorance, one would immediately die, since becoming (bhava) ceases.
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Assaji wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:53 am Hi,
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:30 pm Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?
They do experience contact (phassa), as described in the Sallatha Sutta:
Sutavā ca kho bhikkhave ariyasāvako dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno na socati na kilamati na paridevati na urattāḷiṃ kandati na sammohaṃ āpajjati: so ekaṃ vedanaṃ vediyati kāyikaṃ, na cetasikaṃ.

Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when
touched
with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught.
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn ... .than.html
I eventually plan to write a post that included an analysis of SN 36.6 and its "visannutta vedana" as well as other details in it. For the sake of said post, I am using a very narrow definition of contact as "meeting of the three." SN 36.6 has contact "with" vedana, and IMO that makes it a bit ambiguous compared to what I am looking for. "Visannutta," "disconnected/disjunct," can be interpreted as aphassa/contactless. The fact that I cannot find such a thing as "aphassa" (the word appears to literally not exist in the buddhavacana) is interesting here to me, but I can't build an argument only on "negative evidence," indeed, it isn't technically "evidence" at all.

The unpleasant vedana that is "contacted" by the Arhat, I am not sure if we can definitively argue that this is identical to "the meeting of the three." Certainly, "vedana" here could be taken to refer to the eye-consciousness that produces the vedana, then it would be a case of "meeting of the three," but I am looking for something that is IMO more definitive.

For instance, we have many passages like such:
1:25
The aggregate of sensations [vedana] can be divided into three: pleasant, painful, and neutral. Alternatively, there are five: pleasure and mental pleasure, pain and mental pain, and neutral sensation.

1:26
In terms of support, there are the six sensations resulting from contact, involving the meeting of (sense object, faculty, and consciousness of) either eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind. When divided, there are eighteen types of sensation accompanying a cognitive act.
(The Gate for Entering the Way of a Pandit, Mipham Rinpoche, p. 21 as translated by Erik Pema Kunsang)

I didn't need to head to late-stage Madhyamaka for this. There are plenty of instances where vedana is said to be the direct resultant of contact in the Pali Canon, but not places where it is specifically said that the Arhat's vedana is also contacted. This lack of specification leaves the word open to the reinterpretations of agents like Ven Nanavira, etc. They couldn't have taught the Dharma like they did were it not for omissions of details like this.

Do you think that the contact in the sense of "phuṭṭha" listed here can be reduced as a "meeting of the three?" It isn't directly stated, but I can't see any other precedent for the arising of vedana at all, and visannutta vedana doesn't not appear to be "aphassa," that word not existing.

Anyways, I do plan to return to this in a bit, possibly today since I have the day off work, but I might find it filled with chores instead. We'll see.
Not the one and not another,
unending and impermanent --
of the many Buddhas' transformative teachings,
this is that sweet nectar's taste.

For if a Buddha is not born in the world,
or if the Buddhadharma is completely extinct,
all of the wisdom of the Pratyekabuddhas
would separately arise (from it).

(MMK XVIII.11-12 Madhyamakaśāstra T 1564.23c16)
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by SDC »

Assaji wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:53 am
SDC wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:20 pm
It seems like you understand the Conditioned Arising links as synchronous relationships? In such an interpretation of the above-quoted passage, edible food, contact, mental volition and consciousness would immediately cease upon the cessation of craving. Moreover, in a synchronous interpretation of the Conditioned Arising, with the cessation of ignorance, one would immediately die, since becoming (bhava) ceases.
Hi Assaji,

That’s not how I see it at all. I’m not sure if you saw my posts in the companion thread to this one, but as I understand SN 12.11, the nutriment is for the “maintenance of beings”; the source of those four nutriments is craving; the source for that is feeling; then sutta then goes on to expound paṭiccasamuppāda. Cessation, as described using the simile of the palm stump from SN 12.55, would apply to the mass of suffering. There is no longer support for it. The “I” is destroyed, but the body remains. So all twelve of those aspects of that mass of suffering cease to proliferate, cease to stand for Self. They haven’t disappeared, they each remain as nirodha, which is to say they cannot stand for that mass of suffering anymore.
“By breaking the root of unknowing, it smashes the mechanism of deeds, and drops the thunderbolt of knowledge on the taking up of consciousnesses.” Thag 6.8
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:53 pm
Not exactly what you were looking for, but along the same lines.
But, bhikkhus, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful bodily feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep and beat his breast and become distraught. This is called an instructed noble disciple who has risen up in the bottomless abyss, one who has gained a foothold.”

One who cannot endure
The arisen painful feelings,
Bodily feelings that sap one’s life,
Who trembles when they touch him,
A weakling of little strength
Who weeps out loud and wails:
He has not risen up in the bottomless abyss,
Nor has he even gained a foothold.

But one who is able to endure them—
The arisen painful feelings,
Bodily feelings that sap one’s life—
Who trembles not when they touch him:
He has risen up in the bottomless abyss,
And he has also gained a foothold.
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.4/en/bodhi
“When your last breath arrives, Grammar can do nothing.”

Ādi Śaṅkarācāryaḥ
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SDC
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:53 pm I eventually plan to write a post that included an analysis of SN 36.6 and its "visannutta vedana" as well as other details in it. For the sake of said post, I am using a very narrow definition of contact as "meeting of the three." SN 36.6 has contact "with" vedana, and IMO that makes it a bit ambiguous compared to what I am looking for. "Visannutta," "disconnected/disjunct," can be interpreted as aphassa/contactless. The fact that I cannot find such a thing as "aphassa" (the word appears to literally not exist in the buddhavacana) is interesting here to me, but I can't build an argument only on "negative evidence," indeed, it isn't technically "evidence" at all.
This is why I’m so adamant that phassanirodhā needs some serious consideration. I do not think the intent is to describe the disappearance of contact, but the cessation of its significance as a support for the mass of suffering (same with the other eleven factors).
“By breaking the root of unknowing, it smashes the mechanism of deeds, and drops the thunderbolt of knowledge on the taking up of consciousnesses.” Thag 6.8
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SDC
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:41 pm
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.4/en/bodhi
A great sutta. I touched on it a few pages back: viewtopic.php?p=655548#p655548
“By breaking the root of unknowing, it smashes the mechanism of deeds, and drops the thunderbolt of knowledge on the taking up of consciousnesses.” Thag 6.8
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mjaviem
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Re: Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?

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SDC wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:42 pm ... the cessation of its significance as a support for the mass of suffering (same with the other eleven factors).
Yes and this is called cessation, true cessation. What other significance, other than self and suffering, can there be?
... householders, you should train yourselves thus: ‘How can we from time to time enter and dwell in the rapture of solitude?‘... —AN 5.176 Pītisutta.

Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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