Path attainment

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BrokenBones
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Path attainment

Post by BrokenBones »

Is there mention of a path 'attainment' in the suttas?

Is there such a thing as attainment of the path? I can envisage a surge of faith with accompanying joy being the starting point for people to tread the path; but the whole point of the path is surely to reach fruition where an actual attainment can be talked about.

If I set off walking to the shops... I am on the path (I might be a slow walker & easily distracted at times)... but I am on the path. Only when I get to the shops can I talk about attainment (and if I need a map then I should only rely on one that has been elucidated by the one who made & walked the path in full).
santa100
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Re: Path attainment

Post by santa100 »

BrokenBones wrote:Is there mention of a path 'attainment' in the suttas?
SN 55.1 wrote:"He/she is endowed with verified confidence in the Sangha: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well...who have practiced straight-forwardly...who have practiced methodically...who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four types of noble disciples when taken as pairs, the eight when taken as individual types[1] — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world.'

And footnote:
The four pairs are (1) the person on the path to stream-entry, the person experiencing the fruit of stream-entry; (2) the person on the path to once-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of once-returning; (3) the person on the path to non-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of non-returning; (4) the person on the path to arahantship, the person experiencing the fruit of arahantship. The eight individuals are the eight types forming these four pairs.
BrokenBones
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Re: Path attainment

Post by BrokenBones »

santa100 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:53 am
BrokenBones wrote:Is there mention of a path 'attainment' in the suttas?
SN 55.1 wrote:"He/she is endowed with verified confidence in the Sangha: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well...who have practiced straight-forwardly...who have practiced methodically...who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four types of noble disciples when taken as pairs, the eight when taken as individual types[1] — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world.'

And footnote:
The four pairs are (1) the person on the path to stream-entry, the person experiencing the fruit of stream-entry; (2) the person on the path to once-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of once-returning; (3) the person on the path to non-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of non-returning; (4) the person on the path to arahantship, the person experiencing the fruit of arahantship. The eight individuals are the eight types forming these four pairs.
Yes. But the question is 'path attainment'. It's a commentarial idea that sees an attainment of the path as a mind moment(s) immediately followed by a fruition moment(s).

Using my analogy it would be like suddenly finding yourself at the shops and done your shopping in the blink of an eye. A path starts with a first step and once you've taken that step you're on it.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Path attainment

Post by JamesTheGiant »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:37 am
santa100 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:53 am
The four pairs are (1) the person on the path to stream-entry, the person experiencing the fruit of stream-entry;
Yes. But the question is 'path attainment'.
Yes, the first bit of the 4 pairs is the person on the path to stream entry. They're one of the 8 kinds. They haven't reached the attainment of stream entry yet, they are walking the path to the shop like you said.
santa100
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Re: Path attainment

Post by santa100 »

BrokenBones wrote:Yes. But the question is 'path attainment'. It's a commentarial idea that sees an attainment of the path as a mind moment(s) immediately followed by a fruition moment(s)
If the question is whether the Suttas mentioned about 'path attainment', then SN 55.1 already answeredd it. But if the question is whether fruit attainment immediately follows path attainment as mind moments, see Ven. Bodhi's comment from "In the Buddha's Words":
ITBW_X.20 wrote:Contrary to the commentaries, which hold that the path-attainer realizes the fruit immediately after attaining the path, the Nikayas say merely that one who reaches the stage of Dhamma-follower or Faith-follower (corresponding to the commentarial notion of path-attainer) will realize the fruit within this same life, but not necessarily in the next mind-moment. The two positions might be reconciled if we see the path of the Dhamma-follower and Faith-follower as extended in time but reaching its climax in an instantaneous breakthrough that is immediately followed by realization of the fruit.
sakyan
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Re: Path attainment

Post by sakyan »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:57 pm Is there mention of a path 'attainment' in the suttas?

Is there such a thing as attainment of the path? I can envisage a surge of faith with accompanying joy being the starting point for people to tread the path; but the whole point of the path is surely to reach fruition where an actual attainment can be talked about.

If I set off walking to the shops... I am on the path (I might be a slow walker & easily distracted at times)... but I am on the path. Only when I get to the shops can I talk about attainment (and if I need a map then I should only rely on one that has been elucidated by the one who made & walked the path in full).
If I am right this is a sutta where path attainment is confirmed.

Linked Discourses 46
3. With Udāyī
30. With Udāyī
At one time the Buddha was staying in the land of the Sumbhas, near the town of the Sumbhas called Sedaka. Then Venerable Udāyī went up to the Buddha … and said to him:

“It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing! How helpful my love and respect for the Buddha have been, and my sense of conscience and prudence. For when I was still a layman, I wasn’t helped much by the teaching or the Saṅgha. But when I considered my love and respect for the Buddha, and my sense of conscience and prudence, I went forth from the lay life to homelessness. The Buddha taught me the Dhamma: ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form. Such is feeling … Such is perception … Such are choices … Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’

Then, while staying in an empty hut, I followed the churning of the five grasping aggregates. I truly understood: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. I comprehended the teaching; I acquired the path. When developed and cultivated as I’m living in such a way, it will bring me to such a state that I will understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’

I acquired the awakening factors of mindfulness, investigation of principles, energy, rapture, tranquility, immersion, and equanimity. When developed and cultivated as I’m living in such a way, they will bring me to such a state that I will understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’ This is the path that I acquired. When developed and cultivated as I’m living in such a way, it will bring me to such a state that I will understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’”

“Good, good, Udāyī! For that is indeed the path that you acquired. When developed and cultivated as you’re living in such a way, it will bring you to such a state that you will understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’”
asahi
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Re: Path attainment

Post by asahi »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:57 pm Is there mention of a path 'attainment' in the suttas?
The commentarial explanation appear to be mistaken . Some of the related suttas on path attaintment appear altered . The actual n true meaning of path attaintment means sotapanna stage .
Peace is more precious than triumph
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Path attainment

Post by Ceisiwr »

Apart from the sutta already quoted above I think MN 117 lends itself to the idea.
"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an non-deceptive nature."

- Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta
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Dhammanando
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Re: Path attainment

Post by Dhammanando »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:57 pm Is there mention of a path 'attainment' in the suttas?
Yes, the verb is maggam paṭilabhati. The post from Sakyan gives an example of it as a past participle:

Dhammo ca me, bhante, abhisamito, maggo ca me paṭiladdho.

"I made a breakthrough to the Dhamma, bhante, and the path was obtained by me."
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:57 pmIf I set off walking to the shops... I am on the path (I might be a slow walker & easily distracted at times)... but I am on the path. Only when I get to the shops can I talk about attainment
That's true enough if you're going shopping in your own neighbourhood. But an apter simile, it seems to me, would be a shopping trip in a strange town where you know neither where the shops are nor by what route they can be reached. On a shopping trip in such a town it would be no solecism to speak of attaining/discovering the path to the shops as a prelude and a prerequisite to attaining the shops.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
BrokenBones
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Re: Path attainment

Post by BrokenBones »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:46 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:57 pm Is there mention of a path 'attainment' in the suttas?
Yes, the verb is maggam paṭilabhati. The post from Sakyan gives an example of it as a past participle:

Dhammo ca me, bhante, abhisamito, maggo ca me paṭiladdho.

"I made a breakthrough to the Dhamma, bhante, and the path was obtained by me."
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:57 pmIf I set off walking to the shops... I am on the path (I might be a slow walker & easily distracted at times)... but I am on the path. Only when I get to the shops can I talk about attainment
That's true enough if you're going shopping in your own neighbourhood. But an apter simile, it seems to me, would be a shopping trip in a strange town where you know neither where the shops are nor by what route they can be reached. On a shopping trip in such a town it would be no solecism to speak of attaining/discovering the path to the shops as a prelude and a prerequisite to attaining the shops.
That's why I carry a map... the suttas.

I think my problem is not with 'path attainment' which could possibly be a dawning of understanding & faith in the Buddha's path, but with the idea of it being a few blips of consciousness.

Bhante; do you agree with the idea that the path attainment is immediately followed by fruition?
asahi
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Re: Path attainment

Post by asahi »

It depends on what it means by 《Path》!
If it means you starting to practice dhamma , that is not an attaintment .
Peace is more precious than triumph
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confusedlayman
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Re: Path attainment

Post by confusedlayman »

u see impermanent of something but not of other thing so path is gradual and once u see fully leading to complete non clinging then that's fruit I think
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Alino
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Re: Path attainment

Post by Alino »

Kondañña who attained Stream Entry, from Dhammacakkappavattana sutta 🙏

This is what the Blessed One said. Elated, the bhikkhus of the group of five delighted in the Blessed One’s statement. And while this discourse was being spoken, there arose in the Venerable Kondañña the dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”

...

Then the Blessed One uttered this inspired utterance: “Koṇḍañña has indeed understood! Koṇḍañña has indeed understood!” In this way the Venerable Koṇḍañña acquired the name “Añña Koṇḍañña—Koṇḍañña Who Has Understood.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/bodhi
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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