About No-Self

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cooran
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Re: About No-Self

Post by cooran »

contemplans wrote:Anatta means not-self. An- as a prefix means not. It does not mean no. We have this same prefix etymologically in English -- Un-. Unaware means not aware, not never having no awareness. Sometime this can be translated as "-less", but "no self" is just bad translation. Clearly in the context of the Buddha's teachings this statement was not supported. The not-self doctrine is a corrective to our normal modes of thinking. It is a perception you use for the path. They key word is perception.
Could you please post a link to a Pali-English Dictionary by a Pali scholar which would substantiate your statement above?

In the mean time, consider this:

. Attan : (page 22)
as fourth M i.393; A iii.36; ˚pañcama Dpvs viii.2; ˚sattama J i.233; ˚aṭṭhama VvA 149 (as atta-- naṭṭhama Vv 3413), & ˚aṭṭhamaka Miln 291. anattā (n. and predicative adj.) not a soul, without a soul. Most freq. in combn. with dukkha & anicca -- (1) as noun: S iii.141 (˚anupassin); iv.49; v.345 (˚saññin); A
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... splay=utf8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anattā: No-self, egolessness, soullessness, impersonality, absence of identity, is the last of the 3 universal characteristics of existence ti-lakkhana. This anattā doctrine, which only is taught by a Buddha, teaches that neither within the bodily, material and mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything at all, that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing, real & same, ego-entity, identity, soul, self or independently existing substance. This is the central core doctrine of Buddhism, crucial for understanding the message & method of Buddhism. It is the only really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire structure of the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. All the remaining Buddhist doctrines may, more or less, be found in other philosophic systems and religions, but the anattā doctrine has been clearly and unreservedly taught only by the Buddha, wherefore the Buddha is known as the anattā-vādi or 'Teacher of impersonality'.
Whosoever has not penetrated this universal impersonality of all existence, and does not comprehend that in reality there exists only this continually self-consuming & self-referring process of arising and passing away of bodily, material and mental phenomena, and that there is no separate ego-entity or stable and same core neither within nor outside this process, he will not be able to understand Buddhism, i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths sacca, in the right light. He will think that it is his ego, his personality, that experiences suffering, his personality that performs good and evil actions and will be reborn according to these actions, his personality that will enter into Nibbāna, his personality that walks on the 8-fold path. This is the fatal 'personalist-view' sakkāya-ditthi and self-deception māna 'I Am' that keep beings wandering in Samsāra. Thus it is said in Vis.M XVI:
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
Actions are, but no actor is ever found;
Nibbāna is, but no being exists that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler is seen.

Whosoever does not understand the origin of conditionally arisen phenomena, and does not comprehend that all the actions are conditioned by ignorance, greed and hate, he thinks that it is an ego or self that understands or does not understand, that acts or causes to act, and that comes into existence at rebirth. He believes there exists an identity 'I' that has the sense-contact, that feels, desires, becomes attached, continues and at rebirth again enters a new existence as the same being... Vis.M XVII, 117.

While in the case of the first two characteristics it is stated that all constructions sabbe sankhārā are impermanent and subject to suffering, the corresponding text for the third characteristic states that all states, all phenomena are no-self sabbe dhammā anattā M. 35, Dhp. 279. This is for emphasizing that the common false view of an abiding, same, constant, identical self or substance is neither applicable to any 'construction', whether internal or external, whether physical or mental nor to any conditioned phenomenon, nor to Nibbāna, the only Unconditioned Element asankhatā-dhātu.

The Anattā-lakkhana Sutta, the 'Discourse on the Characteristic of No-self', was the second discourse after Enlightenment, preached by the Buddha to his first five disciples, who after hearing it attained to perfect Nobility Arahatta.

The contemplation of no-self anattānupassanā leads to the emptiness liberation suññatā-vimokkha see. vimokkha. Herein the ability of understanding paññindriya is outstanding, and one who attains in that way the path of Stream-entry is called a Dhamma-devotee dhammānusāri see: ariya-puggala, at the next two stages of sainthood he becomes a vision-attainer ditthippatta; and at the highest stage, i.e. Nobility, he is called 'liberated by understanding' paññā-vimutta.

For further details, see paramattha-sacca, paticca-samuppāda, khandha, ti-lakkhana, nāma-rūpa, patisandhi
Literature: Anattā-lakkhana Sutta, Vinaya I, 13-14; see: XXII, 59; tr. in Three Cardinal Discourses of the Buddha WHEEL 17. - Another important text on Anattā is the Discourse on the Snake Simile Alagaddūpama Sutta, M. 22; tr. in WHEEL 48/49. Other texts in path. - Further: Anattā and Nibbāna, by Nyanaponika Thera WHEEL 11; The Truth of Anattā, by Dr. G. P. Malalasekera WHEEL 94; The Three Basic Facts of Existence III: Egolessness WHEEL 202/204
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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vinasp
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Re: About No-Self

Post by vinasp »

Hi Chris,

Just a short note: My Buddhist Dictionary ( BPS fourth revised edition 1988)
has;

ANATTA: 'not-self', non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the last of the
three characteristics of existence ...

Perhaps it's been revised again.

Regards, Vincent.
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cooran
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Re: About No-Self

Post by cooran »

Hi Vincent,

Could you give a link please? I'd like to look it up online.

with metta
Chris
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Re: About No-Self

Post by vinasp »

Hi Chris,

Sorry, I should have made it clear that I was looking at my printed copy.
I do not know if that edition is available online.

Regards, Vincent.
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cooran
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Re: About No-Self

Post by cooran »

Hello Vincent,

I think it is here - would this be how entry continues?

The anattā doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance. This is the central doctrine of Buddhism, without understanding which a real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. It is the only really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire Structure of the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. All the remaining Buddhist doctrines may, more or less, be found in other philosophic systems and religions, but the anattā-doctrine has been clearly and unreservedly taught only by the Buddha, wherefore the Buddha is known as the anattā-vādi, or 'Teacher of Impersonality'. Whosoever has not penetrated this impersonality of all existence, and does not comprehend that in reality there exists only this continually self-consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena, and that there is no separate ego-entity within or without this process, he will not be able to understand Buddhism, i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths (sacca, q.v.), in the right light. He will think that it is his ego, his personality, that experiences suffering, his personality that performs good and evil actions and will be reborn according to these actions, his personality that will enter into Nibbāna, his personality that walks on the Eightfold Path. Thus it is said in Vis.M. XVI:

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;

Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;

The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."

......................]
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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Re: About No-Self

Post by vinasp »

Hi Chris,

Yes. That is how the entry continues.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: About No-Self

Post by contemplans »

It is a common understanding about the prefix a, an. It is an Indo-European root. It negates the word it is prefixed to, makes it the opposite, but does not negate it totally. IN-constant (a-nicca), doesn't mean having no constancy. If there was no constancy, then why does my head appear in the same place every day? My head is pretty constant in its place. So the meaning is something else. The meaning is you develop the perception to look at what is inconstant, what is not-self. The most literal way of putting it in English would be "unself". That doesn't make sense, so we use instead "not-self". As you may see, NO is not a prefix, but an adverb. Pali would say, "I do not have a self," lit. "There is no self to me," if it wish to express the idea of no self.
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Re: About No-Self

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reflection wrote:Ok, so no-self, non-self, not-self, selfless, anatta, there is no difference between them, it is a matter of translation to me. Other traditions call it emptyness, also ok. I agree however, that some translations may be better than others. Of course there is not really no self, because that would be nihilism. It's quite obvious you exist, because you are right there behind your computer reading this. Denying that would be a bit strange. And that's not what the Buddha did, he denied this view of nihilism. We should be careful not to go there. What he did teach is already explained and quoted to by other members here.
Emptiness is a completely different word being translated Suññatā (emptiness) or Suñña (empty; void)
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: About No-Self

Post by reflection »

Cittasanto wrote:
reflection wrote:Ok, so no-self, non-self, not-self, selfless, anatta, there is no difference between them, it is a matter of translation to me. Other traditions call it emptyness, also ok. I agree however, that some translations may be better than others. Of course there is not really no self, because that would be nihilism. It's quite obvious you exist, because you are right there behind your computer reading this. Denying that would be a bit strange. And that's not what the Buddha did, he denied this view of nihilism. We should be careful not to go there. What he did teach is already explained and quoted to by other members here.
Emptiness is a completely different word being translated Suññatā (emptiness) or Suñña (empty; void)
It's a different word, yes. But I didn't mean to say that's a matter of translation, that's why it's not in the list but separate. Sorry if it was confusing. The point is that the meaning is (sort of) the same. And what's behind the words is much more important than the actual words.

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Reflection
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Re: About No-Self

Post by Cittasanto »

vinasp wrote:Hi Chris,

Sorry, I should have made it clear that I was looking at my printed copy.
I do not know if that edition is available online.

Regards, Vincent.
if it is by A.P. buddhadatta then it is on Mettanet and Aukana trust made a very useful tool with it, called pali lookup
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: About No-Self

Post by Cittasanto »

reflection wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
reflection wrote:Ok, so no-self, non-self, not-self, selfless, anatta, there is no difference between them, it is a matter of translation to me. Other traditions call it emptyness, also ok. I agree however, that some translations may be better than others. Of course there is not really no self, because that would be nihilism. It's quite obvious you exist, because you are right there behind your computer reading this. Denying that would be a bit strange. And that's not what the Buddha did, he denied this view of nihilism. We should be careful not to go there. What he did teach is already explained and quoted to by other members here.
Emptiness is a completely different word being translated Suññatā (emptiness) or Suñña (empty; void)
It's a different word, yes. But I didn't mean to say that's a matter of translation, that's why it's not in the list but separate. Sorry if it was confusing. The point is that the meaning is (sort of) the same. And what's behind the words is much more important than the actual words.

With metta,
Reflection
sorry I read translations for traditions!
but the connotations are different, and the same as in the pali use fwiw
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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cooran
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Re: About No-Self

Post by cooran »

Contemplan said: If there was no constancy, then why does my head appear in the same place every day? My head is pretty constant in its place
It is quite sad to see your posts trying to reinterpret everything according to your own fixed patterns of understanding. Please study the teachings of the Buddha – open your mind - don’t post your own reasoning and understanding., informed by your own religion.

Nothing is the same even for and instant – it is constantly changing all the time.

‘’Buddha points out that there are no static entities, but only dynamic processes which appear to us to be stable and static only because our perception is not sharp enough to detect the changes. Things themselves are constantly undergoing changes just as a waterfall is always changing but from a distance it seems solid, because we can't perceive the flow.’’
http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/impermanent.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with karuna,
Chris
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Re: About No-Self

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
You say 'The chair that is in front of me being of matter is undergoing change'. This sounds as if you are deducing continuous change from the fact that the chair is of matter, and I suggest that what you are doing is to apply an abstract notion that you have learnt about theoretically to your concrete experience (i.e. to the 'much more real idea that the chair is there'). The fact that you speak of 'changes that are taking place which...may not be perceptible' also gives the impression that you are making theoretical assumptions about the nature of change -- how do you know anything about changes that you cannot perceive?

....

Perhaps you will object that it is ridiculous to speak of one's curtains 'fading discontinuously', and from the commonsense point of view I would agree with you. But the fact remains that we do not 'see our curtains fading'; what happens is that one day we 'notice' that the curtains 'have faded'; and this is a sudden perception. No doubt, after a few more weeks, we shall notice that the curtains have faded still more, and we shall infer that all this time the curtains have been gradually fading 'without our noticing it'. 'But' you may say 'do we not sometimes actually see things in process of changing -- as when, for example, the lights are quickly lowered at the cinema and fade in five or ten seconds?' We do: but observe that, in the first place, the change is from 'steady light' to 'fading light' and then from 'fading light' to 'darkness'. In other words, 'fading light' is perceived as a thing distinct from both 'steady light' and 'darkness', and the change from one to another of these things is discontinuous. In the second place, there are reasons for supposing that what we actually perceive when we see a 'fading light' -- which has the same essential structure as a 'flying arrow' -- cannot be properly described as 'continuous change'.
Source: http://nanavira.110mb.com/lett3a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Flux is therefore a metaphysical doctrine, and I am of the opinion that it is not what the Buddha intended by aniccata (impermanence), and its corollary anattata (not-self-ness), because aniccata and anatta apply to formations (sankharas) and things (dhammas) within the world/loka of experience (i.e. sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe dhamma anatta)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: About No-Self

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I think it helps support but agree retro!
Ajahn Chah preferred not sure!
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: About No-Self

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Cittasanto,
Cittasanto wrote:I think it helps support but agree retro!
Ajahn Chah preferred not sure!
I believe flux is a better metaphysical doctrine to believe in than eternalism and annihilationism, but with the caveat that it should be seen for what it is (i.e. an ontological theory) and not be superimposed upon actual experience.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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