Why consciousness is impermanent?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Hanzze
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by Hanzze »

DAWN wrote:Why do you refuse that consciousness is a part of living beings?
Do I? Maybe I expressed something not so well. It was meant in regard of "we all "know" it" in this sentence.

"Consciousness applies to every one of us, we all "know" it.....it is part of a human being."
- > I refuse this statement totaly.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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DAWN
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by DAWN »

Hanzze wrote:
DAWN wrote:Why do you refuse that consciousness is a part of living beings?
Do I? Maybe I expressed something not so well. It was meant in regard of "we all "know" it" in this sentence.

"Consciousness applies to every one of us, we all "know" it.....it is part of a human being."
- > I refuse this statement totaly.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Oh yes, i see, i'am sorry. I was a little surprised by this refutation. :namaste:

But, i'am sorry again, cause i will still not agree with you :?
Actualy, as i uderstand, we know it, but we dont know that we know. The consciousness, the act of "knowing", is, by his nature, a unconsicouss knowlegde of that knowledge.

Or perharps i dont uderstand again what exactly you refuse. :spy:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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equilibrium
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by equilibrium »

Hanzze
Appreciate your responses but you have not understood the intentions in the post.....if you did, you will not be questioning.

I know that you know but it is not being directed to you but others.....the post has been notched down a little so to help others to understand, if you did, you will discover the OP limitations.....even if people were to read this thread and understood it entirely, they will not be able to "uncling".....and as per the OP, the question is asking "WHY?"....do you now see?

If anyone can now "uncling" after reading this thread.....most unlikely, then there is no requirement for further understanding as every being that has read this thread should now be awakened.....which am sure this is not the case.....would this not then reveal a limit to the OP?.....and have this thread reach there yet?.....or is it another wasted opportunity?
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Hanzze
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by Hanzze »

Dear Equilibrium,

I had such an foreboding but thought to put it on submit anyway. The limit of every topic is awakening (even a little) and if it leads to this or is in the right direction there is no limiting of the OP.
another wasted opportunity
Depends always on the own concentration. I guess its allways worthy to give not up and lift it more. Of cause sometimes such things as attachments to any point in the flow of a topic can make it impossible and so there is a new tread needed.

A great OP- question:
Why consciousness is impermanent ? and what is permanent ?
So let us give another try.

"Consciousness applies to every one of us, we all "know" it.....it is part of a human being."
- > I refuse this statement totaly.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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BlueLotus
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by BlueLotus »

acinteyyo wrote:
purple planet wrote:Just to make sure for you guys consciousness=mindfulness right ?
No, it's not purple planet. The Pali word sati = mindfulness and the Pali word viññāna = consciousness.

There are six classes of consciousness (viññāna) according to Sutta MN9:
"And what is consciousness? What is the origination of consciousness? What is the cessation of consciousness? What is the way of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness?
"There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness
And it says in MN18:
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.
"Dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises...
"Dependent on nose & aromas, nose-consciousness arises...
"Dependent on tongue & flavors, tongue-consciousness arises...
"Dependent on body & tactile sensations, body-consciousness arises...
For "sati" (mindfulness) I recommend Sutta DN22. In the translator's introduction you can read:
The role of mindfulness is to keep the mind properly grounded in the present moment in a way that will keep it on the path.
best wishes, acinteyyo
this good answer. I like it.
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equilibrium
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by equilibrium »

Hanzze wrote:A great OP- question:
Why consciousness is impermanent ? and what is permanent ?
So let us give another try.

"Consciousness applies to every one of us, we all "know" it.....it is part of a human being."
- > I refuse this statement totaly.
If we do this, it is going to be a lot harder for others to understand, we now have 2 questions rather than one.
It is not between us, its about others, it is for their benefit and not ours.
What worries me is the original poster isn't even here, in active discussion.....as he is the one who is asking the question in the OP.....what is his current understanding of this thread? or is it already too much? do we know?

Regarding where you refuse this statement is perfectly true but between us, we understand but do they understand?....is it not too much for them already?.....this thread is not for us, it is for others and for their benefit and more importantly where are they?
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Hanzze
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by Hanzze »

Uninstructed

equilibrium, I don't know if we understand and I don't know if others would understand. Bluelotus reposted a good one for those who like to understand.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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EightWheel
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by EightWheel »

Thoughts are impernanet. Awareness is permanent. Awareness is what empowers your mind. Awareness is still there when you are sleeping (proof shout at someone while they are asleep). I see Awareness as ultimate reality and the true self.
The mind is the creator sustainer of both bliss and suffering. Why not fixate on bliss?
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Ben
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by Ben »

EightWheel wrote:I see Awareness as ultimate reality and the true self.
Neither of which is supported by the Buddhadhamma.
kind regards,

Ben
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Mal
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by Mal »

EightWheel wrote:Thoughts are impernanet. Awareness is permanent. Awareness is what empowers your mind. Awareness is still there when you are sleeping (proof shout at someone while they are asleep)... I see Awareness as ultimate reality and the true self.
Shout at someone when they are dead.

Will you see Awareness as ultimate reality when you are dead? How do you know?
SarathW
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by SarathW »

purple planet wrote:Why consciousness is impermanent ? and what is permanent ?

i thought what we are is the consciousness and that is the permanent thing - that and karma -no ?
If something is continually change to something else we called it as impermanent. It is like a stream of a river. Same person will not be able to stepping to the same river twice. A rock does appear to be permanent but it will turn to dust eventually. Empirical sense there is a rock but there is no rock in absolute sense. The reason for this is that a so called rock is made out of other elements. So it is conditioned reality.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Mal
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by Mal »

purple planet wrote:Why consciousness is impermanent ? and what is permanent ?

i thought what we are is the consciousness and that is the permanent thing - that and karma -no ?
Ajahn Brahm says that "superpower mindfulness" reveals consciousness to be discrete. That is, consciousness is there when you are conscious of something, but when you aren't conscious of anything it is not there. Therefore it is impermanent.

On my reading, "what goes on" is the *stream* of consciousness - but each discrete bit of consciousness in the stream dependently arises from a previous bit of consciousness.

Why need karma be permanent? If you have a bad thought, another bad thought can, surely, arise in the reborn that is dependent on the original bad thought - and the original bad thought dies. The "equal badness" associated with each thought is dissipated by good acts - so I can't see any permanence associated with karma. I guess, just be good and your bad karma goes - eventually :)?

Doesn't Buddhism hold that *nothing* is permanent (not even nothing....)?
Sylvester
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by Sylvester »

acinteyyo wrote:
piotr wrote:Hi,
  • 1. Look at your computer
    2. Then turn your head and look at something else
    3. What happened to the previous sight conciousness?
Hi,

I don't think this is a good example piotr. It only works if one accepts the idea that what one sees is a conglomeration of several somehow discrete sight consciousnesses.
As I see it, when I look at my computer and then turn my head and look at something else, what happens is, that eye-consciousness changed. It changed, but it is still there. The way I understand it, eye-consciousness (of my computer) did not cease when I had turned my head and another eye-consciousness (looking at something else) arose but eye-consciousness of visible form (my computer) just changed into eye-consciousness of visible form of something else instead of my computer. The eye-consciousness itself is still eye-consciousness which indeed changed but because of the visible form that had changed and not because consciousness had ceased and arose anew. Although this may show that you can easily see that consciousness is impermanent because it "changes while standing" but you don't see the arising nor the cessation of consciousness. That would be a lot more difficult to observe if you ask me.

best wishes, acinteyyo

Hmm, but SN 12.61 seems to posit that in order for new contact to be made, old contact has to cease. This sutta goes right into the heart of the debate of whether there can be only one consciousness at a time, or multiple consciousnesses at the same time.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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acinteyyo
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Post by acinteyyo »

Sylvester wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:
piotr wrote:Hi,
  • 1. Look at your computer
    2. Then turn your head and look at something else
    3. What happened to the previous sight conciousness?
Hi,

I don't think this is a good example piotr. It only works if one accepts the idea that what one sees is a conglomeration of several somehow discrete sight consciousnesses.
As I see it, when I look at my computer and then turn my head and look at something else, what happens is, that eye-consciousness changed. It changed, but it is still there. The way I understand it, eye-consciousness (of my computer) did not cease when I had turned my head and another eye-consciousness (looking at something else) arose but eye-consciousness of visible form (my computer) just changed into eye-consciousness of visible form of something else instead of my computer. The eye-consciousness itself is still eye-consciousness which indeed changed but because of the visible form that had changed and not because consciousness had ceased and arose anew. Although this may show that you can easily see that consciousness is impermanent because it "changes while standing" but you don't see the arising nor the cessation of consciousness. That would be a lot more difficult to observe if you ask me.

best wishes, acinteyyo

Hmm, but SN 12.61 seems to posit that in order for new contact to be made, old contact has to cease. This sutta goes right into the heart of the debate of whether there can be only one consciousness at a time, or multiple consciousnesses at the same time.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And I don't disagree with that. What I'm trying to illustrate is that "seeing object A" and "seeing object B" doesn't necessarily mean that there is old contact (object A) and new contact (object B) involved. You could also understand that phenomenon as one contact which isn't to be taken as a static "contact-thing", either A or B, but rather as a dynamic process of contact, arising as one thing (object A), change while standing and ceasing as another thing (object B).

best wishes, acinteyyo

edit: I want to add that it isn't plausible to believe that the way we usually categorise and differentiate one thing from another through concepts is congruent to a differentiation of "contact".
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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