robertK wrote:But if one thought that 'Oh, here is desire I must remove it', then
one is no longer following the path toward vipassana.
I cannot find a sutta in accordance with this view. My point is that, to contradict the above, the desire to remove desire is not a sign that "one is no longer following the path toward vipassana". In my most limited understanding, such an assertion is in direct contradiction to the Buddha's teachings. If one lacks the inclination to remove desire, there are two possibilities: Either one is not on the Noble Eightfold Path, or one has completed it. (1) Moreover, the whole purpose of vipassana is to remove desire. If there were no thoughts in the mind related to removing desire i.e. ending suffering, from where would the inclination to practice vipassana arise? Thus such a statement contradicts itself, as well as the Buddha.
Dhammanando wrote: The Majjhima-ṭīkā takes your quotation from the Dvedhāvitakka Sutta to be a description of what the Nettippakaraṇa calls “abandoning by suppression through the power of reflection” (paṭisaṅkhāna-balena vikkhambhana-pahāna). This is a feature of the development of calm /samatha.
The Buddha, however, says:
"If, while he is walking, there arises in a monk a thought of sensuality, a thought of ill-will, or a thought of harmfulness, and he does not quickly abandon, dispel, demolish, or wipe that thought out of existence, then a monk walking with such a lack of ardency & concern is called continually & continuously lethargic & low in his persistence. (The same with standing, sitting and lying down) Iti. 110)
Dhammanando wrote:...deliberate suppression is not the only way in which the hindrances may become absent.
The only alternative the Buddha mentions here is "acquiescence." Is there another of which I'm unaware? "Suppression", as used by the commentary, seems misleading. Again, going by the quote from Iti.110, either a thought is present or it isn't. Regardless, any method of dealing with sensual desire, to be in accordance with the path, involves abandoning or removing it.
The assertion was this:
robertK wrote:But if one thought that 'Oh, here is desire I must remove it', then
one is no longer following the path toward vipassana.
We must conclude that the "path toward vipassana" as envisioned by the esteemed commenter is not the path to the end of suffering as taught by the Buddha. The duty as regards sensual desire etc. in the Second Noble Truth is abandoning/removing/stopping. It's the cause of suffering. If you don't remove the cause, how can the effect subside, i.e. the cessation of dukkha. Without realising the cessation of dukkha, how liberating insight? Further, Right Resolve involves a commitment to non-sensuality etc. Whatever means one has to use to dispel sensual or harmful thoughts is thus a part of the Noble Eightfold Path. Granted, this activity
alone doesn't fulfil the path, but it is an important part. The contested statement denies its role at all.
robertK wrote:Or if i have desire arising, as we all do very often - can it be known as
desire, as an element, right there and then?
If you have desire arising, then as the Buddha says, "abandon, dispel, demolish and wipe that thought out of existence." As regards the Four Noble Truths, which certainly are a path toward insight, the duty, again, as regards desire, is "abandoning". Not "knowing", which might be understood as the duty as regards the first truth.
perkele wrote:I suppose Cormack was relying on the Buddha's utterance in the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta:
DN 16: Mahāparinibbāna Sutta - The Great Passing, The Buddha's Last Days (Walshe trans.) wrote:
'Suppose a monk were to say: "Friends, I heard and received this from the Lord's own lips: this is the Dhamma, this is the discipline, this is the Master's teaching", then, monks, you should neither approve nor disapprove his words. Then, without approving or disapproving, his words and expressions should be carefully noted and compared with the Suttas and reviewed in the light of the discipline. If they, on such comparison and review, are found not to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is not the word of the Buddha, it has been wrongly understood by this monk", and the matter is to be rejected. But where on such comparison and review they are found to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is the word of the Buddha, it has been rightly understood by this monk."
Perkele's supposition that I had the quote from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta in mind, was, unfortunately for me, unfounded. However, on its basis, as highlighted in bold, perhaps this matter should be rejected.
Any path that excludes the removal of desire isn't a Noble Eightfold Path. Thus, how could it be called a "path toward vipassana"?
Dhammanando wrote:Since no amount of such suppression would by itself suffice to generate insight, the practice could not really be described as a "path toward vipassanā".
Is there a sutta that supports the first part of this sentence? Again, I contest "suppression", it seeming to imply a failure to "demolish" the thought, as the Buddha instructs. In my limited understanding, some insight would already have to be present just to discern whether a thought is part of the path or a cause of suffering, and more still to know what to do with it. I say this due to having direct experience in acquiescing to harmful and sensual thoughts! I hope I have more insight now than then.
The sentence as a whole suggests a misunderstanding: The question wasn't whether the dispelling of desire
in and of itself forms a "path toward vipassana" (though the case could well be made that it
does), but rather whether, as per robertK,
the inclination to remove desire is a sign that one is not "following the path toward vipassana". I hope it has been made plain that this is
not the case, and that the absence of such an inclination would indicate one has either strayed from the path or completed it. And I hope it has been stated in terms not contradicting the Buddha's intentions that we all realise the end of suffering.
To repeat, I'd encourage that we take care not to stray from the suttas.
"Brahman, the holy life is lived under the Blessed One with the aim of abandoning desire." (SN 51.15)
With desire the world is tied down.
With the subduing
of desire it's freed.
With the abandoning
of desire all bonds
are cut through. (SN 1.69)
Metta
Cormac
(1)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
(2)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html