The causes for wisdom

[dhamma follower]

Hi David
Do you like my new hairstyle?

Hi Rob,

Yes I do, looks cool. Some of my friends even didn't recognize you as the same Robert who came last year.

Brgrds

D.F

[dhamma follower]

As regards teachers, it seems more appropriate to follow monks (of the Vinaya-following variety) than laypeople.

Hi Cormac,

Here is another perspective on the meaning of a bikkhu:

In the Dhammapada commentary of Buddhaghosa, a bhikkhu is defined as "the person who sees danger (in samsara or cycle of rebirth)" (Pāli: Bhayaṃ ikkhatīti: bhikkhu). He therefore seeks ordination to obtain release from it.[4] The Dhammapada states:[5]

[266-267] He is not a monk just because he lives on others' alms. Not by adopting outward form does one become a true monk. Whoever here (in the Dispensation) lives a holy life, transcending both merit and demerit, and walks with understanding in this world — he is truly called a monk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think we can safely say that our ultimate Teacher is the Buddha. There are wise monks and unwise monks, as well as wise lay people and unwise lay people. For me I am more interested in the truth of what someone says, rather than his/her status or outward appearance. Haven't we all come to believe in the Buddha rather through the truth of his words than because his name means the Enlightened One?

Brgrds,

D.F

[Cormac Brown]

I think we can safely say that our ultimate Teacher is the Buddha. There are wise monks and unwise monks, as well as wise lay people and unwise lay people. For me I am more interested in the truth of what someone says, rather than his/her status or outward appearance. Haven't we all come to believe in the Buddha rather through the truth of his words than because his name means the Enlightened One?

Hi DF,

Yes, the Buddha's words should be our guide. It's true of course that there are varying sorts of monks and laypeople. The Buddha, as quoted above, recommended learning from a monk whose behaviour was free from greed, aversion and delusion. This, as he said, can only be known after a long period of observation. If you are going to take a layperson as a teacher, the same process should be adopted. As to "the truth of what someone says" - someone might speak Dhamma but not act in accordance with it, i.e. reciting teachings but breaking precepts. I wouldn't like to take such a person as a teacher. Learning by example is equally if not more important than learning from someone's words.

As to whether one's teacher should be lay or ordained, I've found a quote which supports the notion of taking laypeople as examples, thus contradicting my belief that one's teacher needs be ordained:

"And what is meant by admirable friendship? There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders' sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship. [AN 8.54]

I stand corrected. And also I know of at least one account in which Citta the householder teaches a monk the Dhamma. He seems to have been a highly advanced practitioner.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that a Vinaya-following monk is a more admirable example than the precept-following householder:

• In his description of the gradual training, the Buddha consistently precedes the attainment of jhanas, powers, and arahantship with the undertaking of the Vinaya.
  
  I recall no instance in the suttas of a lay arahant being described.
  
  Most examples the Buddha gives of taking a teacher, such as one mentioned in a previous post, recommend that it be a monk

Metta

Cormac

[dhamma follower]

Hi Cormac,

As to "the truth of what someone says" - someone might speak Dhamma but not act in accordance with it, i.e. reciting teachings but breaking precepts, I wouldn't like to take such a person as a teacher. Learning by example is equally if not more important than learning from someone's words.

I was thinking about the truth in the sense of one of the causes for wisdom mentioned on this thread "hearing the right teaching". The Buddha said, any word of the truth is Buddhavacana.

Very naturally, one takes those one feels superior to one-self in terms of virtues and wisdom as one's teacher, or as one's wise friend in Dhamma (kalayanamitta). However, I think there's no need to think that whatever our teacher or wise friend says or does is always right. It all has to come down to one's own careful consideration...

Furthermore, other friends, whom one might not hold in so high regards can sometime say wise words and do right things too, and at those moments, they are one's true kalaynamitta. One can learn from anyone any moment, right?

Someone might seem to be very virtuous, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he/she has penetrated the Buddha's Teaching.

Without one's own studying of the Teaching which is now our Teacher because the Buddha is gone, there's no way to know whether someone's teaching is the Buddha's teaching or not, let alone knowing what level of attainment he/she has, in such cases,it would be one's own speculations and expectations only.

Brgrds,

D.F

[tiltbillings]

Without one's own studying of the Teaching which is now our Teacher because the Buddha is gone, there's no way to know whether someone's teaching is the Buddha's teaching or not, let alone knowing what level of attainment he/she has, in such cases,it would be one's own speculations and expectations only.

As for the "Buddha's teachings," you really have no way of knowing if they are really the Buddha's teachings other than speculation and expectations. Working with a teacher, working on your one with the books, you are in same position as with one with the other. A good teacher may be a bit further along the path and may have some genuine insight, which may be worthwhile, but in either case, it is always stepping off the cliff's edge.

[Cormac Brown]

Then Ven. Assaji, arising early in the morning, taking his robe and bowl, entered Rajagaha for alms: gracious in the way he approached and departed, looked forward and behind, drew in and stretched out his arm; his eyes downcast, his every movement consummate. Sariputta the wanderer saw Ven. Assaji going for alms in Rajagaha: gracious... his eyes downcast, his every movement consummate. On seeing him, the thought occurred to him: "Surely, of those in this world who are arahants or have entered the path to arahantship, this is one. What if I were to approach him and question him: 'On whose account have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or in whose Dhamma do you delight?'"[Mv 1.23 1-10]

It's interesting to note that one of the causes or conditions for the arising of the Dhamma-eye in Sariputta was Ven. Assaji's exquisite behaviour and composure. So, too, were Sariputta's keen observational skills, equipping him to spot the behaviour of an arahant. His speculation here was both necessary and useful, and led to his attaining to the first stage of Awakening: A "stepping off the cliff edge" that led to his entering the stream.

Ajahn Maha Boowa also notes that it was while witnessing Ajahn Mun's deportment while doing walking meditation that he was convinced he had found an arahant. This inspired him to become a disciple of the Venerable Ajahn.

[dhamma follower]

Without one's own studying of the Teaching which is now our Teacher because the Buddha is gone, there's no way to know whether someone's teaching is the Buddha's teaching or not, let alone knowing what level of attainment he/she has, in such cases,it would be one's own speculations and expectations only.

As for the "Buddha's teachings," you really have no way of knowing if they are really the Buddha's teachings other than speculation and expectations. Working with a teacher, working on your one with the books, you are in same position as with one with the other. A good teacher may be a bit further along the path and may have some genuine insight, which may be worthwhile, but in either case, it is always stepping off the cliff's edge.

Hi Tilt,

The point was not about studying with books vs studying with one Teacher, as almost everyone has a teacher and reads books. The point was that the trust on a living teacher should not outweigh one's own studying of the Buddha's Teaching as found in the Tipitaka with careful reflection. We know very well that there are many famous and inspiring teachers, but they say different things... I don't think the Buddha encouraged speculations and expectations as part of the way. Instead, he encouraged us to consider and test out for our-self (the famous Kesaputta sutta to the people of Kalamas).

Brgrds,

D.F

[robertk]

Ajahn Maha Boowa also notes that it was while witnessing Ajahn Mun's deportment while doing walking meditation that he was convinced he had found an arahant. This inspired him to become a disciple of the Venerable Ajahn

Of course Mahaboowa might have been wrong in his assumption and gone the wrong way.

[dhamma follower]

Then Ven. Assaji, arising early in the morning, taking his robe and bowl, entered Rajagaha for alms: gracious in the way he approached and departed, looked forward and behind, drew in and stretched out his arm; his eyes downcast, his every movement consummate. Sariputta the wanderer saw Ven. Assaji going for alms in Rajagaha: gracious... his eyes downcast, his every movement consummate. On seeing him, the thought occurred to him: "Surely, of those in this world who are arahants or have entered the path to arahantship, this is one. What if I were to approach him and question him: 'On whose account have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or in whose Dhamma do you delight?'"[Mv 1.23 1-10]

It's interesting to note that one of the causes or conditions for the arising of the Dhamma-eye in Sariputta was Ven. Assaji's exquisite behaviour and composure. So, too, were Sariputta's keen observational skills, equipping him to spot the behaviour of an arahant. His speculation here was both necessary and useful, and led to his attaining to the first stage of Awakening: A "stepping off the cliff edge" that led to his entering the stream.

Then we can also mention the example of Bahiya, who was taken to be an arahant by the ignorant people when he was NOT an arahant. Specualtions and expectations are what they are.

As about Sariputta, the main element that made him become enlightened upon hearing Assaji's short Dhamma exposition was his great accumulations from the part, not because of his speculation.

Probably we can have a discussion on in what way a Dhamma teacher can help the student, that would clarify more about who is the appropriate teacher, and whether speculations and expectations can help.

Brgrds,

D.F

[Cormac Brown]

As is detailed in Canki Sutta, and as is illustrated by the example of Ven. Assaji, a teacher can help a student by ensuring that their own behaviour is free of activities that signal greed, aversion and delusion. This, as the Buddha explains, is a factor in arousing conviction in a prospective student. As much can be seen in Ven. Sariputta's admiration of Ven. Assaji's elegance. Many a person has been discouraged by seeing monastics behave in an unseemly or ungainly fashion, in more or less subtle expressions of defilement. I seem to recall that the five ascetics mightn't have even listened to the Buddha were it not for the fact his new-found demeanour was so impressive (1). The Vinaya, in particular the Sekhiya rules (the first ones new and prospective monks should learn) and Khandhakas, contain very detailed instructions on deportment, manner and etiquette. It's fair to assume that one of the Buddha's reasons for such detail was to encourage monks to behave in such a way that would inspire faith in others.

The value of this has to be verified for oneself, however. And, as the Buddha says, only a discerning person will be able to spot someone of good conduct and habit, not an undiscerning one. [AN 4.192] Some people, on seeing a monk refined in conduct, can really become inspired at heart, wanting to emulate and learn from them, as happened with Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Assaji, and subsequently Ven. Mogallanna, who knew simply from his friend's countenance that he had seen the Deathless.

(1) Regrettably, I cannot find the reference for this. Any help would be appreciated.

[mikenz66]

I seem to recall that the five ascetics mightn't have even listened to the Buddha were it not for the fact his new-found demeanour was so impressive (1).
(1) Regrettably, I cannot find the reference for this. Any help would be appreciated.

It was Ājīvaka Upaka who was particularly impressed by his appearance:
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn26/45

“Then, bhikkhus, when I had stayed at Uruvelā as long as I chose, I set out to wander by stages to Benares. Between Gayā and the Place of Enlightenment the Ājīvaka Upaka saw me on the road and said: ‘Friend, your faculties are clear, the colour of your skin is pure and bright. Under whom have you gone forth, friend? Who is your teacher? Whose Dhamma do you profess? ’ I replied to the Ājīvaka Upaka in stanzas:

However, the group of 5 did seem to be impressed enough to listen to him:
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn26/48

“Then, bhikkhus, wandering by stages, I eventually came to Benares, to the Deer Park at Isipatana, and I approached the bhikkhus of the group of five. The bhikkhus saw me coming in the distance, and they agreed among themselves thus: ‘Friends, here comes the recluse Gotama who lives luxuriously, who gave up his striving, and reverted to luxury. We should not pay homage to him or rise up for him or receive his bowl and outer robe. But a seat may be prepared for him. If he likes, he may sit down.’ However, as I approached, those bhikkhus found themselves unable to keep their pact. One came to meet me and took my bowl and outer robe, another prepared a seat, and another set out water for my feet; however, they addressed me by name and as ‘friend.’

Mike

[tiltbillings]

Without one's own studying of the Teaching which is now our Teacher because the Buddha is gone, there's no way to know whether someone's teaching is the Buddha's teaching or not, let alone knowing what level of attainment he/she has, in such cases,it would be one's own speculations and expectations only.

As for the "Buddha's teachings," you really have no way of knowing if they are really the Buddha's teachings other than speculation and expectations. Working with a teacher, working on your one with the books, you are in same position as with one with the other. A good teacher may be a bit further along the path and may have some genuine insight, which may be worthwhile, but in either case, it is always stepping off the cliff's edge.

Hi Tilt,

The point was not about studying with books vs studying with one Teacher, as almost everyone has a teacher and reads books. The point was that the trust on a living teacher should not outweigh one's own studying of the Buddha's Teaching as found in the Tipitaka with careful reflection. We know very well that there are many famous and inspiring teachers, but they say different things... I don't think the Buddha encouraged speculations and expectations as part of the way. Instead, he encouraged us to consider and test out for our-self (the famous Kesaputta sutta to the people of Kalamas).

"They say different things," and those who study the Buddha's teachings say different things.

[Cormac Brown]

Thank you Mike.

[Cormac Brown]

Ajahn Maha Boowa also notes that it was while witnessing Ajahn Mun's deportment while doing walking meditation that he was convinced he had found an arahant. This inspired him to become a disciple of the Venerable Ajahn

Of course Mahaboowa might have been wrong in his assumption and gone the wrong way.

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

I think that Ajahn Mun's teachings and example fit the above criteria. But that's perhaps best left for another thread.

I think we can agree that Ven. Sariputta was not wrong in his assumption and went the right way.

[Cormac Brown]

In the Dvedhāvitakka Sutta the Bodhisatta's suppressing of the three kinds of unwholesome thought through the power of reflection is described as culminating in the jhānas. Since no amount of such suppression would by itself suffice to generate insight, the practice could not really be described as a "path toward vipassanā".

robertK wrote:
But if one thought that 'Oh, here is desire I must remove it', then
one is no longer following the path toward vipassana.

In relation to this discussion, it might be worth referring to SN 1.38 and its accompanying note 88 from CDB:

Then another devata uttered this inspired utterance in the presence of the Blessed One: "See his concentration well-developed and his mind well liberated - not bent forward and not bent back, and not blocked and checked by forceful suppression..."

Bhikkhu Bhodi's note: "Spk-pt: This is not achieved, not fixed, forcefully, with effort, by way of abandoning in a particular respect or by way of abandoning through suppression as is the mundane-jhana mind or insight; but rather it has been achieved because the defilements have been completely cut off" (my emphasis)

The implication, of course, is that until the defilements have been cut off, there is always an element of deliberate suppression, and the tika here can be seen most explicitly relating abandonment through suppression to the path of insight. The oft-suggested incompatibility of insight and deliberate suppression is thus challenged, to say the least. We can derive from this that, again, deliberate suppression and removal of desire/defilement is only unnecessary at arahantship. Any negligence, while still unattained, to deliberately eradicate thoughts of sensuality is, as previously quoted, "acquiescence." Deliberate suppression or removal of desire displays only that one has not yet attained to liberating insight, but it is certainly not indicate that one is not on the path toward it. Again, it is clear that without such effort, one has abandoned the path toward vipassana.

Thus a reformulation of robertK's statement would be:

But if one thought that 'Oh, here is desire I don't need to remove it', then
one is no longer following the path toward vipassana.

From SN 1.34:

They are not sense pleasures, the world's pretty things:
Man's sensuality is the intention of lust.
The pretty things remain as they are in the world
But the wise remove the desire for them.

Metta

Cormac